[PRCo] Re: Car 1600

[Ken and Tracie]

What is so strange about Baltimore is that fans didn't seem to photograph 
the St. Louis built PCC cars. I have seen many photos taken prior to 1956 
and of the PCC shots, most were Pullman-Standards.

Of course, if you look at some people's Pittsburgh photos, you'd get the 
impression that only 1700s ran after 1968.

K.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:37 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Car 1600


>I think there is a date for the Boston car in the second PCC book ...
> had to be when there was no longer any street running ... I think
> when the Charles River - Arborway quit.
>
> Baltimore?   The only oddball was the Brilliner (7501) and I think it
> was retired along with the 27 St. Louis cars in 1956.  If that isn't
> correct, then we'll have to ask the Baltimorons.   :<)
>
> The Clark PCC in Brooklyn, by the way, really wasn't an orphan.   The
> only issue with it would have been things like window glass.
> Motors, controls, trucks were identical with all the other PCCs so it
> lasted until the end of service on October 31, 1956.   That car is
> preserved at Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston.
>
>
> On Jul 13, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>
>> While we're on the subject of orphans, when did Boston and Baldy-moe
>> sideline their oddball St. Louis Car Company PCCs? I seem to recall
>> reading
>> that Boston nicknamed theirs the "Queen Mary."
>>
>> K.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:43 PM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Car 1600
>>
>>
>>> But there were always weird things that did survive.   How about
>>> Brooklyn and Queens 1010, the PCC which has a General Motors bus
>>> ventilation cowl above the destination sign.   It ran that way right
>>> up until the end of service in 1956.
>>>
>>> Los Angeles had two experimental Peter Witt cars (2601 and 2602) that
>>> had Westinghouse VA and General Electric PCM control.   There were no
>>> other cars in L. A. like them.   I think they were built about 1929
>>> or 1930.   Surprisingly, they both lasted long enough that 2601 wound
>>> up at Orange Empire.   I've had a chance to run it.
>>>
>>> But the general rule is the orphan isn't appreciated anywhere.
>>>
>>> Look at the Pennsylvania Railroad.   Down at Wilmington Shops in the
>>> 1956 I found all sorts of stange electric locomotives that were there
>>> because it was easier to have them sitting out of service than keep
>>> them running ... the O1 class, the single R-1.   The experimental
>>> E2b, E2c and E3b motors disappeared as soon as the E44 motors
>>> arrived.   The single R-1 ran for many years on the Broadway Limited
>>> because i only made a few stops and acceleration wasn't important ...
>>> I think after leaving New York it might have stopped at Newark,
>>> Philadelpia, Paoli and then Harrisburg.   But by the time I moved
>>> east in 1949 it was already considered an orphan.
>>>
>>> The only oddball on the Pennsy that had any longevity was a single
>>> DD-1 electric locomotive that was still around until about 1967 or
>>> 68.   It was needed to pull the wire trains through the Hudson River
>>> tunnels ... there were no ventilation fans and the bores have third
>>> rail for maintenance equipment.    Once the Penn Central was created,
>>> then a newer T motor came down from Harmon to replace the 1909-1910
>>> DD-1 at Sunnyside.
>>>
>>> Like Los Angeles, Baltimore had two Peter Witt cars built in 1924.
>>> They didn't last very long.   If memory serves, the numbers were
>>> 6991-6992.   Anyone who has the Baltimore semi-convertible book (the
>>> one with the green cover) can look them up.  The fare collection
>>> scheme served as a pattern for 150 cars in 1930 except that the 1930
>>> cars came at the wrong time ... it was the Depression and all the
>>> conductors were fired.
>>>
>>> If we were to look at York Railways, they bought the Osgood Bradley
>>> Electromobile demonstrator in 1929.   It was, curiously, numbered
>>> 1929 by the builder and it carried that same number in York.   In
>>> fact the Pennsylvania owner never repainted it.   It ran as a rush
>>> hour extra car on the Wrightsville line.   Well, come 1932 York
>>> Railways abandoned the York-York Haven and East York - Wrightsville
>>> services.   Now at that point there were a lot of surplus cars  ...
>>> probably six or seven.   The Electromobile became a hanger queen for
>>> the next seven years.   It appeared on the for sale list in 1939 when
>>> the final abandonment took place but no one bought it.
>>>
>>> And how about the 1927 Brill Master Unit demonstrator?   Key System
>>> (East Bay Street Railway) bought it and it had just about as stirring
>>> a career as the York car.   I've never seen a railfan picture of it
>>> in revenue service because it didn't last long enough for the
>>> railfans to chase it.     Brill also built a single truck version and
>>> it had even a worse reception ... no one bought it ... it sat behind
>>> the Brill plant in Philadelphia and was eventually scrapped.
>>>
>>> And to bring the thread back to Pittsburgh, how about those late
>>> 1920s experimentals.   As soon as PRC had enough modern equipment to
>>> allow scrapping the trailers, they sure didn't need 6000, 6001 and
>>> 6002 either.   It was probably either the 1000s or 1100s that
>>> replaced the very last trailers and high floor tow cars in 1937 (hard
>>> to tell which because tens and elevens were both being delivered that
>>> year and they were running trailers into 1937 on 13, 15, and out of
>>> Ingram on 27 or 25 (I would have to look at the route cards to be
>>> sure which).   The experimentals were scrapped in 1940 ... did the
>>> 1200s replace them or were they just sitting idle?  Not knowing
>>> otherwise, I would bet the company kept them in reserve hoping for an
>>> upturn in business and then when the bought the 1200s simply said we
>>> can get rid of them now and also scrap some 4700s and 4300s and 4250s
>>> and mothball some low-speed 5100s too.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 12, 2009, at 10:36 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>>>
>>>> I understand the situation, Fred. Milwaukee did the opposite of PAT
>>>> during
>>>> the last few years of trackless trolley operation. The last of
>>>> their newest
>>>> Pullman-Standard Trolley coaches were Westinghouse equipped and the
>>>> majority
>>>> of the postwar fleet were General Electric. So the Westinghouse P-S
>>>> coaches
>>>> were put out to pasture about two years before the last lines were
>>>> dieselized.
>>>>
>>>> 1600 was neither a 1700 nor a 1601 & up car. I'm sure PAT would have
>>>> rejected it had it not been destroyed by fire. Heck, they rejected
>>>> 1630,
>>>> which had lost its ventilation roof system and carried a pre-war
>>>> trolley
>>>> pole base cowl.
>>>>
>>>> K.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 7:24 PM
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Car 1600
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> All sorts of places, Ken.  I had my St. Petersburg model painted
>>>>> for
>>>>> 76 Hamilton which matches one of the pictures in the Westinghouse
>>>>> advertising book.   I know it worked out of Homewood in the
>>>>> beginning
>>>>> and it was there at the end ... or it was there for work at the
>>>>> end.   Bromley has a picture of it on 22 CROSSTOWN ... that
>>>>> suggests
>>>>> it was assigned either to Herron Hill or Manchester for a while.
>>>>> I've seen pictures of it at Kennywood on route 68 ... guess it must
>>>>> have been at Craft for a while.   And I've seen pictures of it
>>>>> working on the Sousside.    Suspect it migrated around every time a
>>>>> carbarn foreman got tired of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Was it a bad car?  Not really.   Not any different from a Johnstown
>>>>> car.   After they quit running the guts were incorporated into new
>>>>> cars in Brussels and those were still around when I rode them in
>>>>> the
>>>>> 1980s.   It is simply that every time you inflict a single oddball
>>>>> vehicle on a repair shop or a motorman, most would rather see you
>>>>> give it to some other shop or motorman.    Human nature.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 12, 2009, at 10:05 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So where did one-of-a-kind all electric car 1600 see the most
>>>>>> service? Was
>>>>>> it being serviced or just mothballed when it was destroyed by
>>>>>> fire?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> K.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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