[PRCo] Re: Car 1600

[Schneider Fred]

They did photograph them.   But there were about 270 cars ... 1 was a  
Brilliner and only 27 were St. Louis cars.   The St. Louis cars all  
were based at Belvedere Car House from Day 1 until they were  
scrapped.   If you photographed routes 32 or 25, you got pictures of  
St. Louis cars or maybe a Pullman.   If you photographed routes 4, 6,  
8, 13, 15, 19 and 26 (the heavy lines), then you got Pullmans.    
Gardenville, Edmonston, Pratt & Grundy had the Pullmans.

I never got an answer from my friends in Baltimore but I suspect that  
they didn't want to screw with public by putting the blinker door  
cars on other routes and catching the public in the doors.


On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:

> What is so strange about Baltimore is that fans didn't seem to  
> photograph
> the St. Louis built PCC cars. I have seen many photos taken prior  
> to 1956
> and of the PCC shots, most were Pullman-Standards.
>
> Of course, if you look at some people's Pittsburgh photos, you'd  
> get the
> impression that only 1700s ran after 1968.
>
> K.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:37 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Car 1600
>
>
>> I think there is a date for the Boston car in the second PCC book ...
>> had to be when there was no longer any street running ... I think
>> when the Charles River - Arborway quit.
>>
>> Baltimore?   The only oddball was the Brilliner (7501) and I think it
>> was retired along with the 27 St. Louis cars in 1956.  If that isn't
>> correct, then we'll have to ask the Baltimorons.   :<)
>>
>> The Clark PCC in Brooklyn, by the way, really wasn't an orphan.   The
>> only issue with it would have been things like window glass.
>> Motors, controls, trucks were identical with all the other PCCs so it
>> lasted until the end of service on October 31, 1956.   That car is
>> preserved at Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston.
>>
>>
>> On Jul 13, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>>
>>> While we're on the subject of orphans, when did Boston and Baldy-moe
>>> sideline their oddball St. Louis Car Company PCCs? I seem to recall
>>> reading
>>> that Boston nicknamed theirs the "Queen Mary."
>>>
>>> K.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:43 PM
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Car 1600
>>>
>>>
>>>> But there were always weird things that did survive.   How about
>>>> Brooklyn and Queens 1010, the PCC which has a General Motors bus
>>>> ventilation cowl above the destination sign.   It ran that way  
>>>> right
>>>> up until the end of service in 1956.
>>>>
>>>> Los Angeles had two experimental Peter Witt cars (2601 and 2602)  
>>>> that
>>>> had Westinghouse VA and General Electric PCM control.   There  
>>>> were no
>>>> other cars in L. A. like them.   I think they were built about 1929
>>>> or 1930.   Surprisingly, they both lasted long enough that 2601  
>>>> wound
>>>> up at Orange Empire.   I've had a chance to run it.
>>>>
>>>> But the general rule is the orphan isn't appreciated anywhere.
>>>>
>>>> Look at the Pennsylvania Railroad.   Down at Wilmington Shops in  
>>>> the
>>>> 1956 I found all sorts of stange electric locomotives that were  
>>>> there
>>>> because it was easier to have them sitting out of service than keep
>>>> them running ... the O1 class, the single R-1.   The experimental
>>>> E2b, E2c and E3b motors disappeared as soon as the E44 motors
>>>> arrived.   The single R-1 ran for many years on the Broadway  
>>>> Limited
>>>> because i only made a few stops and acceleration wasn't  
>>>> important ...
>>>> I think after leaving New York it might have stopped at Newark,
>>>> Philadelpia, Paoli and then Harrisburg.   But by the time I moved
>>>> east in 1949 it was already considered an orphan.
>>>>
>>>> The only oddball on the Pennsy that had any longevity was a single
>>>> DD-1 electric locomotive that was still around until about 1967 or
>>>> 68.   It was needed to pull the wire trains through the Hudson  
>>>> River
>>>> tunnels ... there were no ventilation fans and the bores have third
>>>> rail for maintenance equipment.    Once the Penn Central was  
>>>> created,
>>>> then a newer T motor came down from Harmon to replace the 1909-1910
>>>> DD-1 at Sunnyside.
>>>>
>>>> Like Los Angeles, Baltimore had two Peter Witt cars built in 1924.
>>>> They didn't last very long.   If memory serves, the numbers were
>>>> 6991-6992.   Anyone who has the Baltimore semi-convertible book  
>>>> (the
>>>> one with the green cover) can look them up.  The fare collection
>>>> scheme served as a pattern for 150 cars in 1930 except that the  
>>>> 1930
>>>> cars came at the wrong time ... it was the Depression and all the
>>>> conductors were fired.
>>>>
>>>> If we were to look at York Railways, they bought the Osgood Bradley
>>>> Electromobile demonstrator in 1929.   It was, curiously, numbered
>>>> 1929 by the builder and it carried that same number in York.   In
>>>> fact the Pennsylvania owner never repainted it.   It ran as a rush
>>>> hour extra car on the Wrightsville line.   Well, come 1932 York
>>>> Railways abandoned the York-York Haven and East York - Wrightsville
>>>> services.   Now at that point there were a lot of surplus cars  ...
>>>> probably six or seven.   The Electromobile became a hanger queen  
>>>> for
>>>> the next seven years.   It appeared on the for sale list in 1939  
>>>> when
>>>> the final abandonment took place but no one bought it.
>>>>
>>>> And how about the 1927 Brill Master Unit demonstrator?   Key System
>>>> (East Bay Street Railway) bought it and it had just about as  
>>>> stirring
>>>> a career as the York car.   I've never seen a railfan picture of it
>>>> in revenue service because it didn't last long enough for the
>>>> railfans to chase it.     Brill also built a single truck  
>>>> version and
>>>> it had even a worse reception ... no one bought it ... it sat  
>>>> behind
>>>> the Brill plant in Philadelphia and was eventually scrapped.
>>>>
>>>> And to bring the thread back to Pittsburgh, how about those late
>>>> 1920s experimentals.   As soon as PRC had enough modern  
>>>> equipment to
>>>> allow scrapping the trailers, they sure didn't need 6000, 6001 and
>>>> 6002 either.   It was probably either the 1000s or 1100s that
>>>> replaced the very last trailers and high floor tow cars in 1937  
>>>> (hard
>>>> to tell which because tens and elevens were both being delivered  
>>>> that
>>>> year and they were running trailers into 1937 on 13, 15, and out of
>>>> Ingram on 27 or 25 (I would have to look at the route cards to be
>>>> sure which).   The experimentals were scrapped in 1940 ... did the
>>>> 1200s replace them or were they just sitting idle?  Not knowing
>>>> otherwise, I would bet the company kept them in reserve hoping  
>>>> for an
>>>> upturn in business and then when the bought the 1200s simply  
>>>> said we
>>>> can get rid of them now and also scrap some 4700s and 4300s and  
>>>> 4250s
>>>> and mothball some low-speed 5100s too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 12, 2009, at 10:36 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I understand the situation, Fred. Milwaukee did the opposite of  
>>>>> PAT
>>>>> during
>>>>> the last few years of trackless trolley operation. The last of
>>>>> their newest
>>>>> Pullman-Standard Trolley coaches were Westinghouse equipped and  
>>>>> the
>>>>> majority
>>>>> of the postwar fleet were General Electric. So the Westinghouse  
>>>>> P-S
>>>>> coaches
>>>>> were put out to pasture about two years before the last lines were
>>>>> dieselized.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1600 was neither a 1700 nor a 1601 & up car. I'm sure PAT would  
>>>>> have
>>>>> rejected it had it not been destroyed by fire. Heck, they rejected
>>>>> 1630,
>>>>> which had lost its ventilation roof system and carried a pre-war
>>>>> trolley
>>>>> pole base cowl.
>>>>>
>>>>> K.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 7:24 PM
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Car 1600
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> All sorts of places, Ken.  I had my St. Petersburg model painted
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> 76 Hamilton which matches one of the pictures in the Westinghouse
>>>>>> advertising book.   I know it worked out of Homewood in the
>>>>>> beginning
>>>>>> and it was there at the end ... or it was there for work at the
>>>>>> end.   Bromley has a picture of it on 22 CROSSTOWN ... that
>>>>>> suggests
>>>>>> it was assigned either to Herron Hill or Manchester for a while.
>>>>>> I've seen pictures of it at Kennywood on route 68 ... guess it  
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> have been at Craft for a while.   And I've seen pictures of it
>>>>>> working on the Sousside.    Suspect it migrated around every  
>>>>>> time a
>>>>>> carbarn foreman got tired of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Was it a bad car?  Not really.   Not any different from a  
>>>>>> Johnstown
>>>>>> car.   After they quit running the guts were incorporated into  
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> cars in Brussels and those were still around when I rode them in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> 1980s.   It is simply that every time you inflict a single  
>>>>>> oddball
>>>>>> vehicle on a repair shop or a motorman, most would rather see you
>>>>>> give it to some other shop or motorman.    Human nature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2009, at 10:05 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So where did one-of-a-kind all electric car 1600 see the most
>>>>>>> service? Was
>>>>>>> it being serviced or just mothballed when it was destroyed by
>>>>>>> fire?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> K.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>