[PRCo] Re: METRORAIL DISASTER

Wed Jun 24 16:59:40 EDT 2009

________________________________
> From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> To: Jack May <jack.may at americomm.net>
> Cc: Edson Tennyson <etennyson at cox.net>; Al Schneider <alschneider2 at juno.com>;
> Gary Olden <Gary-elaine at comcast.net>; Nawdry <NAWDRy at bga.com>;
> Kotulak Dick <CRVLKOTULA at aol.com>; Craig Phil <philgcraig204 at yahoo.com>;
> Swindler1 John <j_swindler at hotmail.com>; Vigrass Bill <billvigrass at verizon.net>;
> Bob Dietrich <bob.dietrich1 at verizon.net>; Bente Bruce <bbente at bellsouth.net>;
> Lybarger Ed <trams2 at comcast.net>; Allman Rich <allmanr at verizon.net>;
> Jackson Russ <rejmhj at netzero.net>; Brashear Derrick <shadow at dementia.org>;
> Fitzherbert Tony <Akftrain at aol.com>; Miklos Frank <miklosfrank at comcast..net>;
> JOHN AURELIUS <jaurelius at centurytel.net>; Russell E. Jackson
> <russell.jackson at stvinc.com>; pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:44:33 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: METRORAIL DISASTER

> I have a problem with the word disaster in conjunction with an  
> accident that killed nine people... -[snipped]-

> Fred Schneider

Mr.Schneider;

Tell that to the families of those killed.  Just a simple definition from Webster's School Dictionary indicates this crash  'is'  a disaster:  "a sudden great misfortune; esp: one bringing with it destruction of life  OR-[emphasis-added]  property  OR-[emphasis-added]  causing complete ruin..."  This is not unlike the definition of a recession // depression, is it;  'recession'  if one is still working // 'depression'  if one is unemployed.

Your call the other day to decide if your 'observation(s)'  is//are correct (copied below)  ---  on what basis?  Opinion?  Even today the  'facts'  surrounding the accident are unknown.  We need to read more than one report don't we.  'All that is known'  is that the emergency  'mushroom'  was depressed;  other reports quite clearly state it is unknown as to  'when'  or by  'whom'  the mushroom was depressed.  Because the Rohr cars do not have the required black boxes this may never be known;  other evidence  'could'  indicate if the brakes had or had not been applied.

It is entirely too early to be drawing conclusions isn't it;  let's please wait.  The  NTSB  conducts thorough investigations doesn't it.

Photos reveal one of the cars  'appeared'  to go airborne over the other train with the car essentially sitting on the roof of the other car.  'Telescoping'  generally results in the floor of one car riding over the floor of another;  there can be worse carnage in such situations.  To borrow a term from those who model transit,  telescoping would look like  'literal kitbashing'  --  the ramming of two models together to produce one.  The photo on pg.371 of  The Interurban Era  is an example of such.

It is already known that the Rohr cars  'could'  telescope in an accident.  Do these cars have anticlimbers?  'If'  the anticlimbers engaged successfully,  would the impact cause each car to telescope upon itself?  This begs basic structural integrity doesn't it.

Phil
Without  a  'coast'  but  not  a  'cause.'

"If thou wouldst rule well,  thou must rule for
God,
 and to do that,  thou must be ruled by Him....
Those who will not be
governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."
â€“William Penn  //  founder  of  "Pennsylvania"

> On Jun 24, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Jack May wrote:

.......

> The operator of the Metro train that slammed into a stationary  
> train in front of it apparently had activated the emergency
> brakes in a failed effort to stop before the accident,.....

> the emergency brake button, known as the "mushroom,"
> was depressed, .....

> Investigators also said the striking train was in automatic
> mode, which means onboard computers should have
> controlled its speed and stopped it before it got too  
> close to the stationary train. In addition, Metro sources said,
> the first two cars of that train were two months overdue
> for scheduled maintenance of some braking components.
.......
> The crash, the force of which vaulted the striking train
> atop the one it rammed,.......

> Investigators are also delving into the automatic train
> protection system, which is designed to make collisions
> impossible. Had the system been working correctly,  
> it would have sensed that Train 112 was getting too
> close to Train 214 and directed
> the brakes aboard Train 112 to engage.
.....
> After a special board meeting yesterday, he told reporters,
> "There's not a letter of evidence" to indicate operator error.
> And right now, he said, there is also no indication of signal failure."
>
> The six cars that made up Train 112 were put together in
> an unusual way.  Metro trains operate in married pairs of cars,
> and the lead car is almost always an "A" car, which some]
> operators say run more smoothly and communicate better
> with the electronic devices buried along the track. But
> in the case of Train 112, the lead car was a "B" car, Metro  
> officials said.  It was unclear last night why the train was
> configured that way. It was also unclear what effect, if any,
> the configuration could have had on the crash.
.....
> But federal investigators consider the cars to be unsafe
> because of a tendency during a crash to
> collapse into one another like a telescope, reducing the  
> "survivability" space, or the area in a car in which
> passengers can escape harm.  The force of the impact
> sheared the lead car of Train 112, pushing part of it  
> onto the roof of the trailing car of Train 214 and slamming the
> rest into the body of Train 214.  Two-thirds of Train 112's
> lead car was crushed, Hersman said.
......
> The NTSB also recommended that Metro install data recorders,  
> similar to the black boxes found in airplanes,.... the Rohr
> cars did not have them -- a condition that Hersman also called  
> unacceptable. Metro officials also did not install critical
> software revisions that would have allowed investigators
> to determine whether the operator had applied the
> emergency brakes and the train's speed during braking,
> according to a source knowledgeable about the braking
> systems. Investigators might be able to determine whether
> the emergency brakes were deployed based on physical
> evidence.

Saw Herb Brannon on some of the lists.   Here is a
comment Herb that  
I added to another list this morning.   The rest of you on the PRC  
list can read what the Grizzly Bear thinks; you can decided whether  
I'm right or wrong.   Apparently there is some information floating  
around that the accident was caused my malfunctioning computer control.
Fred Schneider

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> Date: June 23, 2009 11:19:25 AM EDT
> To: "alschneider2 at juno.com" <alschneider2 at juno.com>
> Cc: Swindler1 John <j_swindler at hotmail.com>, Vigrass Bill  
> <billvigrass at verizon.net>, Bob Dietrich  
> <bob.dietrich1 at verizon.net>, Bente Bruce <bbente at bellsouth.net>,  
> Lybarger Ed <trams2 at comcast.net>, Craig Phil  
> <philgcraig204 at yahoo.com>, Allman Rich <allmanr at verizon.net>,  
> Jackson Russ <rejmhj at netzero.net>, Brashear Derrick  
> <shadow at dementia.org>, Fitzherbert Tony <akftrain at aol.com>,  
> Tennyson Ed <etennyson at cox.net>, Miklos Frank  
> <miklosfrank at comcast.net>, May Jack <jack.may at americomm.net>, JOHN  
> AURELIUS <jaurelius at centurytel.net>, "Russell Jackson E."  
> <russell.jackson at stvinc.com>, Kotulak Dick <CRVLKOTULA at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: METRORAIL DISASTER
>
> I was a little disturbed today to hear to NTSB spokesman give her  
> preliminiary belief that the wreck was caused by old cars.   I  
> cannot help but remember all those wooden elevated cars from the  
> turn of the century that CTA was still running after World War  
> II.   Or all the 1912 Nearsides that PTC still had on the streets  
> in 1955.   Or how about the 1906 Market Street Elevated cars that  
> were finally replaced in 1960 by the Budd Almond Joy cars.
>
> I guess even if the "motorperson" was not guilty, I would want to  
> blame the industry standard today that defers maintenance until
the  
> car is so beat that we can go to the federal government and get  
> capital money to restore it to safe operating condition.   It
think  
> John Swindler's line supporting that was, "The only real money is  
> local money."   We'll do anything to avoid spending local money.
>
> I am trying to remember back to some discussions I heard during
the  
> construction of the original Rohr cars ... such as here are the  
> tunnel dimensions ... can you build a car to fit.   It related to  
> cost of tunneling is proportional to cross sectional area times  
> distance and if we can make the cars more compact in cross
section,  
> we can make the tunnel costs cheaper.  Does that compromise the  
> structure of the car?  That is for some one else to answer.
>
> The real question is why did it happen and I cannot accept simply  
> that the cars are older.   If that is so, then how is it that the  
> Strasburg can run steam engines built over 80 years ago pulling  
> wooden coaches that were built 100 years ago?   And how was the  
> Pennsylvania Railroad able to run L1s and K4s in 1957 that were 43

> years old?   I think someone from the NTSB needs a muzzle.
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2009, at 2:06 AM, alschneider2 at juno.com wrote:
>
>> Six are known dead, there are reports of a seventh trapped in
the  
>> wreckage.  70 were taken to various hospitals, with a few
being in  
>> critical condition; according to the press, some may not make
it.
>>
>> I have read that the NTSB wanted the Rohrs retired or at least

>> strengthened; the Bredas were strengthened but not the Rohrs. 
Mr.  
>> Catoe has not proposed doing anything, at least publicly.  The

>> 1000's are also suffering fatigue, with early stages of
cracking.   
>> They must be replaced according to press reports by 2020 or
so.   
>> There next equipment order, the 7000's, are for the Dulles  
>> extension - Metro informally calls them the Virginia cars. 
Only  
>> after that car order will Metro order cars for general fleet  
>> expansion and/or replacement of the 1000's.
>>
>> This is reportedly the third collision with Rohrs overriding
other  
>> cars.
>>
>> There are three levels of automation:
>>
>> 1.  Automatic train protection - this is always in operation
and  
>> appears to have not functioned properly.
>>
>> 2.  Automatic train control -  the computer drives the train,
not  
>> the operator.  Normally Metro operates in this mode, but not  
>> always.  The Shady Grove collision and fatality was due to
poor  
>> braking during a snow storm; the operator requested permission
to  
>> operate manually, was not permitted to do so, and died as a  
>> result.  The rail operating manager had ordered 100% automatic

>> operation to save money on break pads.  He left the authority
not  
>> long after the fatality.
>>
>> 3.  Computer train scheduling (I've forgotten the technical
term  
>> for this) - the computer increases or decreases speed to keep  
>> trains on schedule.  This has never been implemented.
>>
>> I do not consider myself an expert on either Metro or transit,
but  
>> I think the above is true.
>>
>>
>>
>>                            Alan