[PRCo] Re: METRORAIL DISASTER

Thu Jun 25 14:50:24 EDT 2009

Suspect we are arguing whether chicken or egg came first, Fred (:>)

The eye opener was to look at the service frequency for the first rt 7 abandonment petition mid-1950s and what service and ridership had shrunk to around 1960 when another abandonment petition was filed with PUC.  By then not much more than a franchise car.

Cheers

John 

> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: METRORAIL DISASTER
> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:41:22 -0400
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> 
> No, it doesn't ignore history. The heavy inspections on the 10s and 
> 11s were cancelled when it was apparent that route abandonments would 
> render them surplus. Our 1138 went out of service when it came up 
> for inspection. I think it came due in late 1958. Apparently 
> those still running out of Glenwood or Ingram that I photographed on 
> route 56 and in the west end in June 1959 had not yet come due for 
> inspection. The abandonment of the West End made a whole lot of GE 
> cars surplus and changed some barn assignments ... that was probably 
> the end of the traditional Westinghouse versus General Electric 
> assignment list. I would agree too that the abandonment of route 60 
> and 68 was also behind the order to cut out inspections on the 10s 
> and 11s plus the usual secular loss in revenues due to strikes.
> 
> Remember that the 1954 strike got rid of over 100 yellow cars that 
> were still running in the rush hour. By 1955 the company wasn't even 
> hurt by the Homewood fire. When was the next strike 1955 or 1956? 
> It's pretty clear that the next strike, abandonment of routes 60 and 
> 68 and the planned abandonment of the West End Lines was why PRC 
> ordered the cancellation of inspections on the 10s and 11s.
> 
> The 12s remained in service until about 1963 ... I remember that 
> Rankin was filled with uninspected 1200s when PAT took over. But of 
> course by then 1, 4. 5. 7, 94, 95, and 96 were also gone.
> 
> No different than sending cars to Woodland except that I believe the 
> frequency was greater than 5 to 7 years. Except that by the time 
> PAT took over, PRC was doing most of the work in the carbarns. Tony 
> DiSensi explained that PRC had a rule for repairs ... and this was in 
> addition to inspections ... that if the repair took longer than so 
> many minutes (and it might have been 120 or something like that), the 
> car would go to Homewood. Otherwise the barn would do it. But what 
> I was talking about was routine inspections just like your annual 
> safety inspection on your automobile.
> 
> Prior to 1930 Pittsburgh Railways did them on a calendar basis as 
> Homewood, Tunnel and Manchester. In 1930 or thereabouts, Manchester 
> and Tunnel overhauls shops were permanently closed, and all work went 
> to Homewood. The work was changed from a calendar base to a mileage 
> base ... look in the Electric Railway Journal in that period and 
> you'll find a write up in which PRC claims vastly improved expenses 
> and efficiency by inspecting cars based on miles instead of days.
> 
> 
> On Jun 25, 2009, at 9:06 AM, John Swindler wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Sorry Fred, but
> >
> >
> >
> > Claiming that the 10s and 11s were removed from service because 
> > class inspections were cancelled ignores history.
> >
> >
> >
> > 60 and 68 were converted to bus in 1958
> >
> >
> >
> > the west end lines went in 1959
> >
> >
> >
> > the Butler St. lines in 1960/61 and routes like 56 and 98 and 7 
> > soon after.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Pittsburgh Railways was not in the habit of running half empty 
> > vehicles - ridership drops off, service gets cut, and vehicle 
> > requirements decline. Those living in Lancaster County (and most 
> > other parts of the country), didn't witness the problems of the 
> > auto and steel industry around 1959/60. Your dad didn't have to 
> > contend with four day workweeks.
> >
> >
> >
> > And as for sending cars to Homewood for class inspections, how is 
> > that different then sending light rail cars to Woodland every 5-7 
> > years for vehicle overhaul? A lot depends on the capability of the 
> > various shops and car houses. That's also why Callowhill sends 
> > rail cars to Elmwood for certain inspections.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: METRORAIL DISASTER
> >> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:10:31 -0400
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>
> >> Yes, I saw the movie Ten. But I don't think there are any people
> >> who are really Tens. I think there are some pretty fine 6s and 7s
> >> out there.
> >>
> >> Yes, Herb, you understand that I worked all my life as a statistical
> >> analyst and manager in that area. And I think if you can be the
> >> second busiest transit agency in North America and be as safe as
> >> WMATA has been since 1976 is miraculous since considering that it is
> >> a government agency.
> >>
> >> If you want to see the comparison ... come with me some day and we'll
> >> go for a rush hour stroll on some of the expressways around the
> >> district. Express can mean 30 miles per hour but that can still be
> >> faster than city streets. Population of the Washington DC has
> >> dropped from 802,000 to 572,000 (-29%) since 1950 mostly due to
> >> ethnic flight. However, because government needs to hold meetings
> >> it remains one of the three cities in the USA with the strongest
> >> urban core. You have to keep all those Executive Branch offices
> >> around the President ... The Secretary of Transportation, for
> >> example, has to be where he can be called in for cabinet meetings
> >> with the president and his department has to be nearby (FTA, FRA,
> >> etc). Same goes for all the other agencies. The Legislative
> >> Branch has to be there too. And then hundreds of thousands of
> >> lobbyists have to be there to tell us how to live our lives. The
> >> commuter trains come out as far as Perryville Maryland (50 miles to
> >> the northeast), Fredericksburg on the south, Brunswick and Frederick
> >> on the west. And the subway system is the heaviest hauler outside of
> >> New York.
> >>
> >> Ed Tennyson echoed something I wanted to say but didn't on one the
> >> posts ... "you don't spend $900,000,000 replacing 300 cares that are
> >> not worn out yet" because some petty bureaucrat thinks they don't
> >> have the same strength as some of the other cars. Furthermore, if
> >> you had begun to place an order then (2006) you still would not have
> >> them running today (June 2009). And I guess I'm a little concerned
> >> with the design quality in an industry where all you need to qualify
> >> is having won a bid before. You would probably wind up replacing
> >> inferior cars with something that doesn't match structurally other
> >> cars in the fleet. Sounds to me like a no win situation no matter
> >> you do.
> >>
> >> I think the only reason Chicago Transit Authority has so much success
> >> over the years with cars is because they had their own in house
> >> design team and they knew how to write specifications. The car
> >> builders may not have like dealing with Walter Keevil and his boys
> >> but CTA got what they asked for. But the rest of agencies go out
> >> and say we want 200 cars and leave it up to the car builder or the
> >> consultant who does a cut and paste job from prior specification
> >> books. Ya gets what ya pays for. (Signed resident cynic)
> >>
> >> Maybe I shouldn't say that Chicago is alone. Russ Jackson at SEPTA
> >> was rather instrumental in making sure that Kawasaki built the Broad
> >> Street subway cars, the streetcars in 1980 and the Norristown cars.
> >> We're talking equipment that has been running 20 to 29 years with no
> >> problems in an agency not noted for supreme competency.
> >>
> >> When you have a business in which we have gradually abolished all
> >> repair shops because they require you to use local tax revenues to
> >> fix your equipment out of operating funds but if you defer
> >> maintenance until the whole damn thing nearly collapses and then you
> >> can get federal funds, you send your fleet away to have someone else
> >> fix it ... what is the quality of the fleet in the final years before
> >> you sent it away? Toronto, for example, used to have a standard
> >> number of years between replacing all wiring in a streetcar or
> >> trolley bus or subway car. Would that sort of thing be done today
> >> in the USA when you are trying to shift expenses over to Washington?
> >>
> >> I don't have statistics available to compare private sector
> >> operations versus public sector operations. It would be invalid
> >> anyway because there are 49 electric railways in the USA and Canada
> >> today that didn't exist before subsidized operations.
> >>
> >> But I suspect prior to about 1965, Cleveland Transit probably paid
> >> all expenses out of the farebox including all maintenance. Today
> >> they probably have shifted a lot of maintenance to capital by bidding
> >> out a lot of overhaul work to private corporations. Am I correct,
> >> Herb? If I'm not, they're different than most companies.
> >>
> >> Somewhere on this list (or another one recently) someone was asking
> >> why they saw San Diego cars heading north on or south through
> >> California. Reason was for overhauls. Someone else was doing the
> >> work.
> >>
> >> It's not like it was when Pittsburgh Railways cycled cars through
> >> Homewood every few months. Why does PTM have 1138? It was removed
> >> from service because class inspections were cancelled on all 1000s
> >> and 1100s were. It was retired when it came due. We did not run
> >> cars past inspection dates in those days. The PUC would have had a
> >> field day.
> >>
> >> On Jun 24, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
> >>
> >>> You apparently never saw Bo Derek. How come no women are 10s, but
> >>> men are?
> >>> I know what you meant. I'm sure you agree the accident was tragic,
> >>> however,
> >>> knowing your former occupation, I can understand what you were
> >>> trying to
> >>> say. The statistics point to a top rate safety record per passenger
> >>> mile.
> >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Schneider Fred
> >>> <fwschneider at comcast.net>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Gentlemen: There are no women who are 10s. There are men who are
> >>>> 10s.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Fred Schneider
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Herb Brannon
> >>>> On America's North Coast
> >>>> One cannot accomplish anything without fanatacism.
> >>>> *Evita Peron *
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 

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