[PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.

Tue Apr 13 06:18:51 EDT 2010

Anonymous authors in Trolley Fare?  Say it isn't so! 

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of John
Swindler
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:47 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.

The prior commentary was brought to you by:  (see attached pix)

Sorry, Fred.  Could't resist.  But I suspect you will enjoy it.  It's from
Halifax. (:>)

As for Fred's comments - There was a quote several years ago about MBAs -
that you don't have to know a business to manage a business.  Or something
like that.  (I think Harvard business school was trying to claim that their
graduates could manage any business)    Private industry isn't the only
business.

And yes, we do know those two Trolley Fare authors.

Also, thanks for mentioning the upcoming Baltimore study.  This could be
'fun' during a conference later this week.  

Cheers

John

> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:46:11 -0400
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> 
> Somebody out in the Pacific Northwest is unaware of what has happened in
the transit industry.
> Phillip: Transit agencies don't need such expertise because bus
manufacturers have the ability to design buses in house. You simply buy them
from General Motors and run them on asphalt streets. You do not need to keep
the knowledge and expertise that Pittsburgh Railways had. Those guys were
fired long ago. And that sir, was the reason given for getting rid of the
engineering staff in Pittsburgh. 
> 
> Homewood Shops was closed over 40 years ago. The average working life of
any employe is 30 to 35 years. 
> 
> The track and overhead lines engineering department on Sandusky Street? I
think they were closed even earlier. When the trolley museum needed to rail
bent for the east site loop, SEPTA was called upon to bend it. Pittsburgh
doesn't have that capability today? If they need to have rail bent, the
steel company is paid to do it. 
> 
> Look at what is going on elsewhere in the world? Who are you kidding? 
> 
> Remember when the Presidents' Conference Committee did a study in the
early 1930s to see what the jerk limits were that people could tolerate on a
streetcar? Seems no one knows where that material is today. The study is
going to be redone next weekend in Baltimore on the light rail. How do I
know? I have been asked to be a victim because I'm arthritic and have
artificial knees. They want to know if I can stand up when they jerk me
around. There will be a dozen or so people being battered around starting at
5:30 next Sunday morning to restudy what we already know and have forgotten.
We're reinventing wheels. 
> 
> The way light rail cars are made today is to cut and paste specifications
together from someone else's specs. No one has any design experience. I take
that back. There are a few people like Walter Keevil with Chicago Transit
Authority. But damn few people. Most go to consultants who are just about as
fogbound as the agencies who hire them. 
> 
> Why do you think we have elevated lines between Los Angeles and Long Beach
without guard rails? Different laws of physics apply in Los Angeles. Cars
cannot fall off structures in southern California. Understand that? Must be
a really talented consultant who understood that fact. 
> 
> And why did northbound track of the San Diego Trolley from San Ysidro 
> have line poles between the rails? Because the contract to lay the 
> double track the line was dated before the contract to move the poles 
> over. So the contractor laid the track. Then the line contractor comes 
> along and screws up the track digging out the poles after he installs 
> new poles. (Don't believe me? ... I can show you pictures.)
> 
> And we talked about the guy who understood electrifying the West Coast
Mainline of British Railways stringing wire to run trolleys in Pittsburgh.
Really needed all those steel cat poles didn't we. I think years ago in
Trolley Fare there was an article by two anonymous writers who might have
given PAT the Andrew Carnegie award for the use of excess steel for that
project..... John, don't we know those two writers? 
> 
> Oh, then there was the installation of the steel catenary bridges along
the Red Arrow Media line. The job was never finished. That was done in the
1980s. They still have intermittent wooden poles because they never
converted from single wire to catenary and today no one in SEPTA has any
institutional memory of why it was done. 
> 
> And then we have WMATA's unreinforced Rohr cars that might kill someone if
they get into just the right accident.
> 
> Oh yes. Remembering those Boeing Vertol light rail cars that were to be
the UMTA standard ... a standard disaster like a 17-humped camel. About the
only thing they're good for is a static display in a museum of engineering
disasters. Do I remember correctly John that Muni took the cars that Boston
refused because they were crap, or was it the other way around? Seems to me
at the end of their service life in San Francisco, some of them were sold
second hand or third hand to Manchester, England where they sat unused
because the new owner realized he had purchased a flock of turkeys.
> 
> Then there is an Italian company Breda, then AnsaldoBreda ... remember the
trouble they had with the Shaker cars, then their Boston cars, and more
recently Los Angeles refused to even accept the additional cars on an option
because the first ones don't work. The federal rules only say you have to
successful bid a contract, not successful build a contract to be
prequalified for future work in the USA. 
> 
> There have been some good jobs. The Kawasaki streetcars in Philadelphia
were good. Russ Jackson was the project leader / engineer for SEPTA. He went
there from Louis T. Klauder ... told me he did it because he wanted agency
experience on his resume. Russ is about 75 today and working part time for
STVINC ... probably not interested in any major jobs any more. He assigned a
man named Bill Janssen to work as his right hand man and inspector in the
factory in Kobe, Japan during the construction of those cars. Bill had
started with the Illinois Terminal, served the army in WW2, worked for the
Milwaukee Road in the Tacoma, WA electric shops, worked for Chicago Transit
Authority three different times under George Krambles, worked in the
Highwood Shops of the North Shore until it folded, and worked for the South
Shore at Michigan City until normal retirement age. Bill can't do any more
work like that ... he died in 2005. He is an example of the old expertise is
GONE. !
> But he did work into his 80s as a consultant for the Northern Indiana
Commuter Transportation District. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> 
> > * To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> > * Subject: Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> > * From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> > * Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:16:29 -0400 
> > ________________________________
> > 
> > Intentional??? Doubtful
> > But how many transit managers spend their holidays observing transit 
> > observations overseas???
> > Why would decision makers know what options were available for light 
> > rail overhead construction???
> > That's why they
> > hired consultants.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > John
> > ________________________________
> > 
> > Mr.Swindler;
> > 
> > 
> > I don't know where one can draw the line between 'accident' and 
> > intention.
> > 
> > If the rest of your statement is true then Pat is in far worse shape 
> > than I ever thought. Transit agencies often propose specifications, 
> > needs, etc. internally don't they. Pat probably inherited much PRC 
> > talent that has such experience. Yes, 'some' but not all retired and 
> > certainly they passed their knowledge to others. Additionally, 
> > transit consultants are certainly aware of world wide construction 
> > techniques aren't they. Or are they according to your comments 
> > above?
> > Certainly a case for being extra cautious hiring consultants. Who in 
> > his right mind would have suggested such massive overhead support 
> > structures?
> > 
> > Your comments seem to make an even greater case for intent to 
> > denigrate don't they. As far as I am concerned I wasn't sold on this 
> > idea until I considered it for these emails. I am still not sold on 
> > 'intent' but it is more plausible than some of the arguments here.
> > 
> > Shame on Pat for being so oblivious to construction techniques 
> > around them. Shame on Pat for ignoring the warnings of their own 
> > employees on this project.
> > Shame on Pat if they allowed good overhead people to leave without 
> > training replacements. Shame on Pat for such negligence in hiring 
> > consultants. Shame on Pat for not listening to Mr.Tennyson and 
> > possibly others, many others. Pat doesn't just have a bad 
> > reputation; rather, they have stripped themselves of a reputation 
> > altogether. It is an organization without a soul.
> > 
> > It 'is' part of Pats job to be aware of industry standards; shame on 
> > Pat for such reckless negligence. This borders on inexcusable.
> > 
> > 
> > Phil
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> ________________________________
> >>> From: robert simpson <bobs at pacbell.net>
> >>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>> Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 4:10:52 PM
> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> >> 
> >>> Wonder if they were intended to be "ugly" - or if it was really 
> >>> state-of-the-art for the era in which they were originally built?
> >>> They didn't have as efficient insulation at that time.
> >> 
> >>> Bob
> >>> from Krazy Kalifornia
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:55:05 -0700
> >> From: pcc_sr at yahoo.com
> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org; Charlesebrown at webtv.net;
> > ktjosephson at embarqmail.com; Milwaukee-electric at dementia.org; 
> > rpmurphy at charter.net
> >> 
> >> Mr.Simpson;
> >> 
> >> As stated the 'ugliness' of the overhead as intentional is 
> >> postulation; 'insider' confirmation would be needed as foundation 
> >> for 'proving' such a charge wouldn't it. The history of Pats 
> >> hostility toward trolleys is well documented from Mr.Dameron 
> >> through the authority's balking at the rebuilding of the Overbrook 
> >> line which seems quite successful now completed. This gives some 
> >> credence to the postulation.
> >> 
> >> Insulation is hardly the problem; it is the massive towers used to 
> >> hold up the overhead. Some have commented such towers are more in 
> >> line with the mainline PRR RR and GG1 operation. Simple span or 
> >> floating span overhead was in use by a very high percentage of 
> >> light rail operations world wide when this unsightly Pgh overhead 
> >> was constructed. This lends more credence to the postulation when 
> >> much simpler overhead is available doesn't it.
> >> 
> >> Mr.Swindler mentions Pat was advised not to install such heavy 
> >> overhead yet ignored the advice. Again, this adds more to the 
> >> postulation that a company which abandoned trolleys before buses 
> >> were available, which openly denigrated trolleys, which balked at 
> >> light rail construction, which balked at rebuilding the Overbrook 
> >> line did significantly over build the light rail infrastructure to 
> >> continue the denigration.
> >> 
> >> I thought this original postulation was 'interesting;'
> >> after this simple review it gains a little more respect doesn't it. 
> >> Maybe Mr.Tennyson has more inside information on the project. 'If' 
> >> this was the intention of Pat it 'apparently' was not successful in 
> >> canceling light rail construction elsewhere.
> >> 
> >> Constant writing on this topic over 30+years has worn itself out 
> >> hasn't it. It is time to put this topic to rest.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Phil
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 

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