[PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.

Tue Apr 13 19:13:42 EDT 2010

All the authors had names - sort of.

> From: trams2 at comcast.net
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 06:18:51 -0400
> 
> Anonymous authors in Trolley Fare? Say it isn't so! 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of John
> Swindler
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:47 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The prior commentary was brought to you by: (see attached pix)
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, Fred. Could't resist. But I suspect you will enjoy it. It's from
> Halifax. (:>)
> 
> 
> 
> As for Fred's comments - There was a quote several years ago about MBAs -
> that you don't have to know a business to manage a business. Or something
> like that. (I think Harvard business school was trying to claim that their
> graduates could manage any business) Private industry isn't the only
> business.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, we do know those two Trolley Fare authors.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, thanks for mentioning the upcoming Baltimore study. This could be
> 'fun' during a conference later this week. 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> > Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:46:11 -0400
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > 
> > Somebody out in the Pacific Northwest is unaware of what has happened in
> the transit industry.
> > Phillip: Transit agencies don't need such expertise because bus
> manufacturers have the ability to design buses in house. You simply buy them
> from General Motors and run them on asphalt streets. You do not need to keep
> the knowledge and expertise that Pittsburgh Railways had. Those guys were
> fired long ago. And that sir, was the reason given for getting rid of the
> engineering staff in Pittsburgh. 
> > 
> > Homewood Shops was closed over 40 years ago. The average working life of
> any employe is 30 to 35 years. 
> > 
> > The track and overhead lines engineering department on Sandusky Street? I
> think they were closed even earlier. When the trolley museum needed to rail
> bent for the east site loop, SEPTA was called upon to bend it. Pittsburgh
> doesn't have that capability today? If they need to have rail bent, the
> steel company is paid to do it. 
> > 
> > Look at what is going on elsewhere in the world? Who are you kidding? 
> > 
> > Remember when the Presidents' Conference Committee did a study in the
> early 1930s to see what the jerk limits were that people could tolerate on a
> streetcar? Seems no one knows where that material is today. The study is
> going to be redone next weekend in Baltimore on the light rail. How do I
> know? I have been asked to be a victim because I'm arthritic and have
> artificial knees. They want to know if I can stand up when they jerk me
> around. There will be a dozen or so people being battered around starting at
> 5:30 next Sunday morning to restudy what we already know and have forgotten.
> We're reinventing wheels. 
> > 
> > The way light rail cars are made today is to cut and paste specifications
> together from someone else's specs. No one has any design experience. I take
> that back. There are a few people like Walter Keevil with Chicago Transit
> Authority. But damn few people. Most go to consultants who are just about as
> fogbound as the agencies who hire them. 
> > 
> > Why do you think we have elevated lines between Los Angeles and Long Beach
> without guard rails? Different laws of physics apply in Los Angeles. Cars
> cannot fall off structures in southern California. Understand that? Must be
> a really talented consultant who understood that fact. 
> > 
> > And why did northbound track of the San Diego Trolley from San Ysidro 
> > have line poles between the rails? Because the contract to lay the 
> > double track the line was dated before the contract to move the poles 
> > over. So the contractor laid the track. Then the line contractor comes 
> > along and screws up the track digging out the poles after he installs 
> > new poles. (Don't believe me? ... I can show you pictures.)
> > 
> > And we talked about the guy who understood electrifying the West Coast
> Mainline of British Railways stringing wire to run trolleys in Pittsburgh.
> Really needed all those steel cat poles didn't we. I think years ago in
> Trolley Fare there was an article by two anonymous writers who might have
> given PAT the Andrew Carnegie award for the use of excess steel for that
> project..... John, don't we know those two writers? 
> > 
> > Oh, then there was the installation of the steel catenary bridges along
> the Red Arrow Media line. The job was never finished. That was done in the
> 1980s. They still have intermittent wooden poles because they never
> converted from single wire to catenary and today no one in SEPTA has any
> institutional memory of why it was done. 
> > 
> > And then we have WMATA's unreinforced Rohr cars that might kill someone if
> they get into just the right accident.
> > 
> > Oh yes. Remembering those Boeing Vertol light rail cars that were to be
> the UMTA standard ... a standard disaster like a 17-humped camel. About the
> only thing they're good for is a static display in a museum of engineering
> disasters. Do I remember correctly John that Muni took the cars that Boston
> refused because they were crap, or was it the other way around? Seems to me
> at the end of their service life in San Francisco, some of them were sold
> second hand or third hand to Manchester, England where they sat unused
> because the new owner realized he had purchased a flock of turkeys.
> > 
> > Then there is an Italian company Breda, then AnsaldoBreda ... remember the
> trouble they had with the Shaker cars, then their Boston cars, and more
> recently Los Angeles refused to even accept the additional cars on an option
> because the first ones don't work. The federal rules only say you have to
> successful bid a contract, not successful build a contract to be
> prequalified for future work in the USA. 
> > 
> > There have been some good jobs. The Kawasaki streetcars in Philadelphia
> were good. Russ Jackson was the project leader / engineer for SEPTA. He went
> there from Louis T. Klauder ... told me he did it because he wanted agency
> experience on his resume. Russ is about 75 today and working part time for
> STVINC ... probably not interested in any major jobs any more. He assigned a
> man named Bill Janssen to work as his right hand man and inspector in the
> factory in Kobe, Japan during the construction of those cars. Bill had
> started with the Illinois Terminal, served the army in WW2, worked for the
> Milwaukee Road in the Tacoma, WA electric shops, worked for Chicago Transit
> Authority three different times under George Krambles, worked in the
> Highwood Shops of the North Shore until it folded, and worked for the South
> Shore at Michigan City until normal retirement age. Bill can't do any more
> work like that ... he died in 2005. He is an example of the old expertise is
> GONE. !
> > But he did work into his 80s as a consultant for the Northern Indiana
> Commuter Transportation District. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> > 
> > > * To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> > > * Subject: Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> > > * From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> > > * Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:16:29 -0400 
> > > ________________________________
> > > 
> > > Intentional??? Doubtful
> > > But how many transit managers spend their holidays observing transit 
> > > observations overseas???
> > > Why would decision makers know what options were available for light 
> > > rail overhead construction???
> > > That's why they
> > > hired consultants.
> > > 
> > > Cheers
> > > 
> > > John
> > > ________________________________
> > > 
> > > Mr.Swindler;
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I don't know where one can draw the line between 'accident' and 
> > > intention.
> > > 
> > > If the rest of your statement is true then Pat is in far worse shape 
> > > than I ever thought. Transit agencies often propose specifications, 
> > > needs, etc. internally don't they. Pat probably inherited much PRC 
> > > talent that has such experience. Yes, 'some' but not all retired and 
> > > certainly they passed their knowledge to others. Additionally, 
> > > transit consultants are certainly aware of world wide construction 
> > > techniques aren't they. Or are they according to your comments 
> > > above?
> > > Certainly a case for being extra cautious hiring consultants. Who in 
> > > his right mind would have suggested such massive overhead support 
> > > structures?
> > > 
> > > Your comments seem to make an even greater case for intent to 
> > > denigrate don't they. As far as I am concerned I wasn't sold on this 
> > > idea until I considered it for these emails. I am still not sold on 
> > > 'intent' but it is more plausible than some of the arguments here.
> > > 
> > > Shame on Pat for being so oblivious to construction techniques 
> > > around them. Shame on Pat for ignoring the warnings of their own 
> > > employees on this project.
> > > Shame on Pat if they allowed good overhead people to leave without 
> > > training replacements. Shame on Pat for such negligence in hiring 
> > > consultants. Shame on Pat for not listening to Mr.Tennyson and 
> > > possibly others, many others. Pat doesn't just have a bad 
> > > reputation; rather, they have stripped themselves of a reputation 
> > > altogether. It is an organization without a soul.
> > > 
> > > It 'is' part of Pats job to be aware of industry standards; shame on 
> > > Pat for such reckless negligence. This borders on inexcusable.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Phil
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >> ________________________________
> > >>> From: robert simpson <bobs at pacbell.net>
> > >>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > >>> Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 4:10:52 PM
> > >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> > >> 
> > >>> Wonder if they were intended to be "ugly" - or if it was really 
> > >>> state-of-the-art for the era in which they were originally built?
> > >>> They didn't have as efficient insulation at that time.
> > >> 
> > >>> Bob
> > >>> from Krazy Kalifornia
> > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:55:05 -0700
> > >> From: pcc_sr at yahoo.com
> > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> > >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org; Charlesebrown at webtv.net;
> > > ktjosephson at embarqmail.com; Milwaukee-electric at dementia.org; 
> > > rpmurphy at charter.net
> > >> 
> > >> Mr.Simpson;
> > >> 
> > >> As stated the 'ugliness' of the overhead as intentional is 
> > >> postulation; 'insider' confirmation would be needed as foundation 
> > >> for 'proving' such a charge wouldn't it. The history of Pats 
> > >> hostility toward trolleys is well documented from Mr.Dameron 
> > >> through the authority's balking at the rebuilding of the Overbrook 
> > >> line which seems quite successful now completed. This gives some 
> > >> credence to the postulation.
> > >> 
> > >> Insulation is hardly the problem; it is the massive towers used to 
> > >> hold up the overhead. Some have commented such towers are more in 
> > >> line with the mainline PRR RR and GG1 operation. Simple span or 
> > >> floating span overhead was in use by a very high percentage of 
> > >> light rail operations world wide when this unsightly Pgh overhead 
> > >> was constructed. This lends more credence to the postulation when 
> > >> much simpler overhead is available doesn't it.
> > >> 
> > >> Mr.Swindler mentions Pat was advised not to install such heavy 
> > >> overhead yet ignored the advice. Again, this adds more to the 
> > >> postulation that a company which abandoned trolleys before buses 
> > >> were available, which openly denigrated trolleys, which balked at 
> > >> light rail construction, which balked at rebuilding the Overbrook 
> > >> line did significantly over build the light rail infrastructure to 
> > >> continue the denigration.
> > >> 
> > >> I thought this original postulation was 'interesting;'
> > >> after this simple review it gains a little more respect doesn't it. 
> > >> Maybe Mr.Tennyson has more inside information on the project. 'If' 
> > >> this was the intention of Pat it 'apparently' was not successful in 
> > >> canceling light rail construction elsewhere.
> > >> 
> > >> Constant writing on this topic over 30+years has worn itself out 
> > >> hasn't it. It is time to put this topic to rest.
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> Phil
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
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