[PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.

[Fred Schneider]

Maybe that was the issue brought to you by Andrew Carnegie and Henry Clay Frick??????


On Apr 13, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Edward H. Lybarger wrote:

> Anonymous authors in Trolley Fare?  Say it isn't so! 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of John
> Swindler
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:47 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The prior commentary was brought to you by:  (see attached pix)
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, Fred.  Could't resist.  But I suspect you will enjoy it.  It's from
> Halifax. (:>)
> 
> 
> 
> As for Fred's comments - There was a quote several years ago about MBAs -
> that you don't have to know a business to manage a business.  Or something
> like that.  (I think Harvard business school was trying to claim that their
> graduates could manage any business)    Private industry isn't the only
> business.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, we do know those two Trolley Fare authors.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, thanks for mentioning the upcoming Baltimore study.  This could be
> 'fun' during a conference later this week.  
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
>> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:46:11 -0400
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> 
>> Somebody out in the Pacific Northwest is unaware of what has happened in
> the transit industry.
>> Phillip: Transit agencies don't need such expertise because bus
> manufacturers have the ability to design buses in house. You simply buy them
> from General Motors and run them on asphalt streets. You do not need to keep
> the knowledge and expertise that Pittsburgh Railways had. Those guys were
> fired long ago. And that sir, was the reason given for getting rid of the
> engineering staff in Pittsburgh. 
>> 
>> Homewood Shops was closed over 40 years ago. The average working life of
> any employe is 30 to 35 years. 
>> 
>> The track and overhead lines engineering department on Sandusky Street? I
> think they were closed even earlier. When the trolley museum needed to rail
> bent for the east site loop, SEPTA was called upon to bend it. Pittsburgh
> doesn't have that capability today? If they need to have rail bent, the
> steel company is paid to do it. 
>> 
>> Look at what is going on elsewhere in the world? Who are you kidding? 
>> 
>> Remember when the Presidents' Conference Committee did a study in the
> early 1930s to see what the jerk limits were that people could tolerate on a
> streetcar? Seems no one knows where that material is today. The study is
> going to be redone next weekend in Baltimore on the light rail. How do I
> know? I have been asked to be a victim because I'm arthritic and have
> artificial knees. They want to know if I can stand up when they jerk me
> around. There will be a dozen or so people being battered around starting at
> 5:30 next Sunday morning to restudy what we already know and have forgotten.
> We're reinventing wheels. 
>> 
>> The way light rail cars are made today is to cut and paste specifications
> together from someone else's specs. No one has any design experience. I take
> that back. There are a few people like Walter Keevil with Chicago Transit
> Authority. But damn few people. Most go to consultants who are just about as
> fogbound as the agencies who hire them. 
>> 
>> Why do you think we have elevated lines between Los Angeles and Long Beach
> without guard rails? Different laws of physics apply in Los Angeles. Cars
> cannot fall off structures in southern California. Understand that? Must be
> a really talented consultant who understood that fact. 
>> 
>> And why did northbound track of the San Diego Trolley from San Ysidro 
>> have line poles between the rails? Because the contract to lay the 
>> double track the line was dated before the contract to move the poles 
>> over. So the contractor laid the track. Then the line contractor comes 
>> along and screws up the track digging out the poles after he installs 
>> new poles. (Don't believe me? ... I can show you pictures.)
>> 
>> And we talked about the guy who understood electrifying the West Coast
> Mainline of British Railways stringing wire to run trolleys in Pittsburgh.
> Really needed all those steel cat poles didn't we. I think years ago in
> Trolley Fare there was an article by two anonymous writers who might have
> given PAT the Andrew Carnegie award for the use of excess steel for that
> project..... John, don't we know those two writers? 
>> 
>> Oh, then there was the installation of the steel catenary bridges along
> the Red Arrow Media line. The job was never finished. That was done in the
> 1980s. They still have intermittent wooden poles because they never
> converted from single wire to catenary and today no one in SEPTA has any
> institutional memory of why it was done. 
>> 
>> And then we have WMATA's unreinforced Rohr cars that might kill someone if
> they get into just the right accident.
>> 
>> Oh yes. Remembering those Boeing Vertol light rail cars that were to be
> the UMTA standard ... a standard disaster like a 17-humped camel. About the
> only thing they're good for is a static display in a museum of engineering
> disasters. Do I remember correctly John that Muni took the cars that Boston
> refused because they were crap, or was it the other way around? Seems to me
> at the end of their service life in San Francisco, some of them were sold
> second hand or third hand to Manchester, England where they sat unused
> because the new owner realized he had purchased a flock of turkeys.
>> 
>> Then there is an Italian company Breda, then AnsaldoBreda ... remember the
> trouble they had with the Shaker cars, then their Boston cars, and more
> recently Los Angeles refused to even accept the additional cars on an option
> because the first ones don't work. The federal rules only say you have to
> successful bid a contract, not successful build a contract to be
> prequalified for future work in the USA. 
>> 
>> There have been some good jobs. The Kawasaki streetcars in Philadelphia
> were good. Russ Jackson was the project leader / engineer for SEPTA. He went
> there from Louis T. Klauder ... told me he did it because he wanted agency
> experience on his resume. Russ is about 75 today and working part time for
> STVINC ... probably not interested in any major jobs any more. He assigned a
> man named Bill Janssen to work as his right hand man and inspector in the
> factory in Kobe, Japan during the construction of those cars. Bill had
> started with the Illinois Terminal, served the army in WW2, worked for the
> Milwaukee Road in the Tacoma, WA electric shops, worked for Chicago Transit
> Authority three different times under George Krambles, worked in the
> Highwood Shops of the North Shore until it folded, and worked for the South
> Shore at Michigan City until normal retirement age. Bill can't do any more
> work like that ... he died in 2005. He is an example of the old expertise is
> GONE. !
>> But he did work into his 80s as a consultant for the Northern Indiana
> Commuter Transportation District. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
>> 
>>> * To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> * Subject: Re: Streetcars in D.C.
>>> * From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>>> * Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:16:29 -0400 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> Intentional??? Doubtful
>>> But how many transit managers spend their holidays observing transit 
>>> observations overseas???
>>> Why would decision makers know what options were available for light 
>>> rail overhead construction???
>>> That's why they
>>> hired consultants.
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> John
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> Mr.Swindler;
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I don't know where one can draw the line between 'accident' and 
>>> intention.
>>> 
>>> If the rest of your statement is true then Pat is in far worse shape 
>>> than I ever thought. Transit agencies often propose specifications, 
>>> needs, etc. internally don't they. Pat probably inherited much PRC 
>>> talent that has such experience. Yes, 'some' but not all retired and 
>>> certainly they passed their knowledge to others. Additionally, 
>>> transit consultants are certainly aware of world wide construction 
>>> techniques aren't they. Or are they according to your comments 
>>> above?
>>> Certainly a case for being extra cautious hiring consultants. Who in 
>>> his right mind would have suggested such massive overhead support 
>>> structures?
>>> 
>>> Your comments seem to make an even greater case for intent to 
>>> denigrate don't they. As far as I am concerned I wasn't sold on this 
>>> idea until I considered it for these emails. I am still not sold on 
>>> 'intent' but it is more plausible than some of the arguments here.
>>> 
>>> Shame on Pat for being so oblivious to construction techniques 
>>> around them. Shame on Pat for ignoring the warnings of their own 
>>> employees on this project.
>>> Shame on Pat if they allowed good overhead people to leave without 
>>> training replacements. Shame on Pat for such negligence in hiring 
>>> consultants. Shame on Pat for not listening to Mr.Tennyson and 
>>> possibly others, many others. Pat doesn't just have a bad 
>>> reputation; rather, they have stripped themselves of a reputation 
>>> altogether. It is an organization without a soul.
>>> 
>>> It 'is' part of Pats job to be aware of industry standards; shame on 
>>> Pat for such reckless negligence. This borders on inexcusable.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Phil
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: robert simpson <bobs at pacbell.net>
>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>> Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 4:10:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
>>>> 
>>>>> Wonder if they were intended to be "ugly" - or if it was really 
>>>>> state-of-the-art for the era in which they were originally built?
>>>>> They didn't have as efficient insulation at that time.
>>>> 
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> from Krazy Kalifornia
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:55:05 -0700
>>>> From: pcc_sr at yahoo.com
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org; Charlesebrown at webtv.net;
>>> ktjosephson at embarqmail.com; Milwaukee-electric at dementia.org; 
>>> rpmurphy at charter.net
>>>> 
>>>> Mr.Simpson;
>>>> 
>>>> As stated the 'ugliness' of the overhead as intentional is 
>>>> postulation; 'insider' confirmation would be needed as foundation 
>>>> for 'proving' such a charge wouldn't it. The history of Pats 
>>>> hostility toward trolleys is well documented from Mr.Dameron 
>>>> through the authority's balking at the rebuilding of the Overbrook 
>>>> line which seems quite successful now completed. This gives some 
>>>> credence to the postulation.
>>>> 
>>>> Insulation is hardly the problem; it is the massive towers used to 
>>>> hold up the overhead. Some have commented such towers are more in 
>>>> line with the mainline PRR RR and GG1 operation. Simple span or 
>>>> floating span overhead was in use by a very high percentage of 
>>>> light rail operations world wide when this unsightly Pgh overhead 
>>>> was constructed. This lends more credence to the postulation when 
>>>> much simpler overhead is available doesn't it.
>>>> 
>>>> Mr.Swindler mentions Pat was advised not to install such heavy 
>>>> overhead yet ignored the advice. Again, this adds more to the 
>>>> postulation that a company which abandoned trolleys before buses 
>>>> were available, which openly denigrated trolleys, which balked at 
>>>> light rail construction, which balked at rebuilding the Overbrook 
>>>> line did significantly over build the light rail infrastructure to 
>>>> continue the denigration.
>>>> 
>>>> I thought this original postulation was 'interesting;'
>>>> after this simple review it gains a little more respect doesn't it. 
>>>> Maybe Mr.Tennyson has more inside information on the project. 'If' 
>>>> this was the intention of Pat it 'apparently' was not successful in 
>>>> canceling light rail construction elsewhere.
>>>> 
>>>> Constant writing on this topic over 30+years has worn itself out 
>>>> hasn't it. It is time to put this topic to rest.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Phil
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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