[PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.

trams2 at comcast.net trams2 at comcast.net
Tue Apr 13 21:04:42 EDT 2010 

Perhaps! 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net> 
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org 
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 8:23:22 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C. 

Maybe that was the issue brought to you by Andrew Carnegie and Henry Clay Frick?????? 


On Apr 13, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Edward H. Lybarger wrote: 

> Anonymous authors in Trolley Fare?  Say it isn't so! 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org 
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of John 
> Swindler 
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:47 PM 
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org 
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The prior commentary was brought to you by:  (see attached pix) 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, Fred.  Could't resist.  But I suspect you will enjoy it.  It's from 
> Halifax. (:>) 
> 
> 
> 
> As for Fred's comments - There was a quote several years ago about MBAs - 
> that you don't have to know a business to manage a business.  Or something 
> like that.  (I think Harvard business school was trying to claim that their 
> graduates could manage any business)    Private industry isn't the only 
> business. 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, we do know those two Trolley Fare authors. 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, thanks for mentioning the upcoming Baltimore study.  This could be 
> 'fun' during a conference later this week.   
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers 
> 
> John 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net 
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C. 
>> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:46:11 -0400 
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org 
>> 
>> Somebody out in the Pacific Northwest is unaware of what has happened in 
> the transit industry. 
>> Phillip: Transit agencies don't need such expertise because bus 
> manufacturers have the ability to design buses in house. You simply buy them 
> from General Motors and run them on asphalt streets. You do not need to keep 
> the knowledge and expertise that Pittsburgh Railways had. Those guys were 
> fired long ago. And that sir, was the reason given for getting rid of the 
> engineering staff in Pittsburgh. 
>> 
>> Homewood Shops was closed over 40 years ago. The average working life of 
> any employe is 30 to 35 years. 
>> 
>> The track and overhead lines engineering department on Sandusky Street? I 
> think they were closed even earlier. When the trolley museum needed to rail 
> bent for the east site loop, SEPTA was called upon to bend it. Pittsburgh 
> doesn't have that capability today? If they need to have rail bent, the 
> steel company is paid to do it. 
>> 
>> Look at what is going on elsewhere in the world? Who are you kidding? 
>> 
>> Remember when the Presidents' Conference Committee did a study in the 
> early 1930s to see what the jerk limits were that people could tolerate on a 
> streetcar? Seems no one knows where that material is today. The study is 
> going to be redone next weekend in Baltimore on the light rail. How do I 
> know? I have been asked to be a victim because I'm arthritic and have 
> artificial knees. They want to know if I can stand up when they jerk me 
> around. There will be a dozen or so people being battered around starting at 
> 5:30 next Sunday morning to restudy what we already know and have forgotten. 
> We're reinventing wheels. 
>> 
>> The way light rail cars are made today is to cut and paste specifications 
> together from someone else's specs. No one has any design experience. I take 
> that back. There are a few people like Walter Keevil with Chicago Transit 
> Authority. But damn few people. Most go to consultants who are just about as 
> fogbound as the agencies who hire them. 
>> 
>> Why do you think we have elevated lines between Los Angeles and Long Beach 
> without guard rails? Different laws of physics apply in Los Angeles. Cars 
> cannot fall off structures in southern California. Understand that? Must be 
> a really talented consultant who understood that fact. 
>> 
>> And why did northbound track of the San Diego Trolley from San Ysidro 
>> have line poles between the rails? Because the contract to lay the 
>> double track the line was dated before the contract to move the poles 
>> over. So the contractor laid the track. Then the line contractor comes 
>> along and screws up the track digging out the poles after he installs 
>> new poles. (Don't believe me? ... I can show you pictures.) 
>> 
>> And we talked about the guy who understood electrifying the West Coast 
> Mainline of British Railways stringing wire to run trolleys in Pittsburgh. 
> Really needed all those steel cat poles didn't we. I think years ago in 
> Trolley Fare there was an article by two anonymous writers who might have 
> given PAT the Andrew Carnegie award for the use of excess steel for that 
> project..... John, don't we know those two writers? 
>> 
>> Oh, then there was the installation of the steel catenary bridges along 
> the Red Arrow Media line. The job was never finished. That was done in the 
> 1980s. They still have intermittent wooden poles because they never 
> converted from single wire to catenary and today no one in SEPTA has any 
> institutional memory of why it was done. 
>> 
>> And then we have WMATA's unreinforced Rohr cars that might kill someone if 
> they get into just the right accident. 
>> 
>> Oh yes. Remembering those Boeing Vertol light rail cars that were to be 
> the UMTA standard ... a standard disaster like a 17-humped camel. About the 
> only thing they're good for is a static display in a museum of engineering 
> disasters. Do I remember correctly John that Muni took the cars that Boston 
> refused because they were crap, or was it the other way around? Seems to me 
> at the end of their service life in San Francisco, some of them were sold 
> second hand or third hand to Manchester, England where they sat unused 
> because the new owner realized he had purchased a flock of turkeys. 
>> 
>> Then there is an Italian company Breda, then AnsaldoBreda ... remember the 
> trouble they had with the Shaker cars, then their Boston cars, and more 
> recently Los Angeles refused to even accept the additional cars on an option 
> because the first ones don't work. The federal rules only say you have to 
> successful bid a contract, not successful build a contract to be 
> prequalified for future work in the USA. 
>> 
>> There have been some good jobs. The Kawasaki streetcars in Philadelphia 
> were good. Russ Jackson was the project leader / engineer for SEPTA. He went 
> there from Louis T. Klauder ... told me he did it because he wanted agency 
> experience on his resume. Russ is about 75 today and working part time for 
> STVINC ... probably not interested in any major jobs any more. He assigned a 
> man named Bill Janssen to work as his right hand man and inspector in the 
> factory in Kobe, Japan during the construction of those cars. Bill had 
> started with the Illinois Terminal, served the army in WW2, worked for the 
> Milwaukee Road in the Tacoma, WA electric shops, worked for Chicago Transit 
> Authority three different times under George Krambles, worked in the 
> Highwood Shops of the North Shore until it folded, and worked for the South 
> Shore at Michigan City until normal retirement age. Bill can't do any more 
> work like that ... he died in 2005. He is an example of the old expertise is 
> GONE. ! 
>> But he did work into his 80s as a consultant for the Northern Indiana 
> Commuter Transportation District. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote: 
>> 
>>> * To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> 
>>> * Subject: Re: Streetcars in D.C. 
>>> * From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com> 
>>> * Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:16:29 -0400 
>>> ________________________________ 
>>> 
>>> Intentional??? Doubtful 
>>> But how many transit managers spend their holidays observing transit 
>>> observations overseas??? 
>>> Why would decision makers know what options were available for light 
>>> rail overhead construction??? 
>>> That's why they 
>>> hired consultants. 
>>> 
>>> Cheers 
>>> 
>>> John 
>>> ________________________________ 
>>> 
>>> Mr.Swindler; 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I don't know where one can draw the line between 'accident' and 
>>> intention. 
>>> 
>>> If the rest of your statement is true then Pat is in far worse shape 
>>> than I ever thought. Transit agencies often propose specifications, 
>>> needs, etc. internally don't they. Pat probably inherited much PRC 
>>> talent that has such experience. Yes, 'some' but not all retired and 
>>> certainly they passed their knowledge to others. Additionally, 
>>> transit consultants are certainly aware of world wide construction 
>>> techniques aren't they. Or are they according to your comments 
>>> above? 
>>> Certainly a case for being extra cautious hiring consultants. Who in 
>>> his right mind would have suggested such massive overhead support 
>>> structures? 
>>> 
>>> Your comments seem to make an even greater case for intent to 
>>> denigrate don't they. As far as I am concerned I wasn't sold on this 
>>> idea until I considered it for these emails. I am still not sold on 
>>> 'intent' but it is more plausible than some of the arguments here. 
>>> 
>>> Shame on Pat for being so oblivious to construction techniques 
>>> around them. Shame on Pat for ignoring the warnings of their own 
>>> employees on this project. 
>>> Shame on Pat if they allowed good overhead people to leave without 
>>> training replacements. Shame on Pat for such negligence in hiring 
>>> consultants. Shame on Pat for not listening to Mr.Tennyson and 
>>> possibly others, many others. Pat doesn't just have a bad 
>>> reputation; rather, they have stripped themselves of a reputation 
>>> altogether. It is an organization without a soul. 
>>> 
>>> It 'is' part of Pats job to be aware of industry standards; shame on 
>>> Pat for such reckless negligence. This borders on inexcusable. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Phil 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ________________________________ 
>>>>> From: robert simpson <bobs at pacbell.net> 
>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org 
>>>>> Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 4:10:52 PM 
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C. 
>>>> 
>>>>> Wonder if they were intended to be "ugly" - or if it was really 
>>>>> state-of-the-art for the era in which they were originally built? 
>>>>> They didn't have as efficient insulation at that time. 
>>>> 
>>>>> Bob 
>>>>> from Krazy Kalifornia 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>>>> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:55:05 -0700 
>>>> From: pcc_sr at yahoo.com 
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C. 
>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org; Charlesebrown at webtv.net; 
>>> ktjosephson at embarqmail.com; Milwaukee-electric at dementia.org; 
>>> rpmurphy at charter.net 
>>>> 
>>>> Mr.Simpson; 
>>>> 
>>>> As stated the 'ugliness' of the overhead as intentional is 
>>>> postulation; 'insider' confirmation would be needed as foundation 
>>>> for 'proving' such a charge wouldn't it. The history of Pats 
>>>> hostility toward trolleys is well documented from Mr.Dameron 
>>>> through the authority's balking at the rebuilding of the Overbrook 
>>>> line which seems quite successful now completed. This gives some 
>>>> credence to the postulation. 
>>>> 
>>>> Insulation is hardly the problem; it is the massive towers used to 
>>>> hold up the overhead. Some have commented such towers are more in 
>>>> line with the mainline PRR RR and GG1 operation. Simple span or 
>>>> floating span overhead was in use by a very high percentage of 
>>>> light rail operations world wide when this unsightly Pgh overhead 
>>>> was constructed. This lends more credence to the postulation when 
>>>> much simpler overhead is available doesn't it. 
>>>> 
>>>> Mr.Swindler mentions Pat was advised not to install such heavy 
>>>> overhead yet ignored the advice. Again, this adds more to the 
>>>> postulation that a company which abandoned trolleys before buses 
>>>> were available, which openly denigrated trolleys, which balked at 
>>>> light rail construction, which balked at rebuilding the Overbrook 
>>>> line did significantly over build the light rail infrastructure to 
>>>> continue the denigration. 
>>>> 
>>>> I thought this original postulation was 'interesting;' 
>>>> after this simple review it gains a little more respect doesn't it. 
>>>> Maybe Mr.Tennyson has more inside information on the project. 'If' 
>>>> this was the intention of Pat it 'apparently' was not successful in 
>>>> canceling light rail construction elsewhere. 
>>>> 
>>>> Constant writing on this topic over 30+years has worn itself out 
>>>> hasn't it. It is time to put this topic to rest. 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Phil 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>                                                
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