[PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
Phillip Clark Campbell
pcc_sr at yahoo.com
Fri Aug 13 17:22:19 EDT 2010
Mr.Long;
You seem to provide a very accurate description of operations.
The wrong sign on the 38A was not uncommon; photos abound
of such. Trying to rationalize this after the fact creates confusion.
It is simply a wrong sign. The 4200s used on the 38A often didn't
display a destination.
The 42/38 was the owl car for the 2-routes wasn't it. I don't know when
this owl commenced but it was there all through the 1950s and into Pat;
how long Pat continued this owl is unknown to me. (Pat eventually
terminated the Library owl; they may have done the same with the 42/38.)
This is the only time the two lines were 'officially' combined from the mid
1940s forward until the 38-Mt.Lebanon was to be abandoned inbound
of Dormont Jct. Evening service was dedicated for each route, not combined.
The 42 line was not 'officially' used as a dead head route for other routes;
the switch OB at the wye wasn't electrified until some time in the 1960s
nor was the IB point on Washington Road at Dormont Jct -- this came later
as well. The Owl motormen had to set both switches by hand and 'theoretically'
set the point back to regular route after passing through on the last trip. The
38 was an official pull-in route for Interurbans following the PM rush;
information
in the emails here indicate that County Fair trippers used the 38 (and thus the
38A)
OB only until the early 1950s.
Starting about a year before the 38 was to be abandoned, the 42/38 ran all
day Saturday simultaneously with the 38-Mt.Lebanon. I don't remember if this
was continued into the evening on Saturday. This is when the switch IB on
Washington Road at Dormont Jct. was electrified. All day Sunday reverted to
dedicated service on each route without the 42/38. Why just the one day is
unknown isn't it. (It would seem that special traffic light configuration would
be needed as well; the IB point was well back from McFarland. The car making
the diverge move had to wait for southbound traffic to clear; by then McFarland
could have a green light.)
The 38 was officially abandoned and the 42/38 assumed all service while PRC
was the operating company. The track connection at Dormont Jct. remained
single track for some time after the 38 was officially abandoned. It was not
until
1963-1965 that the siding at Biltmore was installed; this may be when the
single
track at Dormont Jct. was reconstructed for 2-tracks. I don't remember if PRC
or
Pat built these tracks.
Phil
________________________________
From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org; Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
Cc: Skip Gatermann <biker4 at sbcglobal.net>; Unknown Holtz
<atholtz at optonline.net>; Michael Greene <michael_t_greene at yahoo.com>; Matt Dawn
<mwntrolley at aol.com>; Conrad Misek <crmisek at aol.com>; Joe Bux
<baybridgecondo3 at aol.com>; Frank Pfuhler <pfuhler at msn.com>; E Casey
<ecasey9631 at aol.com>; Vic Gordon <lipizzansvt2 at aol.com>; David Dillard
<jwne at temple.edu>; John Sikorskie <sparkyberadi at aol.com>; Jim Greller
<jcgreller at hcia.org>; Randy Gluckman <randygluck1 at aol.com>; Bob Vogel
<chuchubob at yahoo.com>; Bradley Clark <bhc1 at aol.com>; Mary O'Brien
<maryobrien at charter.net>; Jimmy Boylan XX <jamesboylan at compuserve.com>; Bill
Armstrong <wja1933 at juno.com>; Richard Panse <brtpcc at mac.com>; Alex Vaughn
<alexlvaughn at yahoo.com>; Brad Noyes <nozze4 at att.net>; Bill Mangahas
<newkirk at optonline.net>; JJ Earl <dukeoq at aol.com>; Dave Neubauer
<it1569djn at earthlink.net>; Jack Rush XX <rush123 at cox.net>; Mark Goldfeder
<frgs4evr at aol.com>; Andrew Chalfen <chalfen at pobox.upenn.edu>; Michael Rambo Jr
<mrambojr at yahoo.com>; Ted Eickmann <twe2431 at sbcglobal.net>; Bill Paulus
<studedude43 at hotmail.com>; Muench <cemuench2 at comcast.net>; Bruce Bente
<bbente at bellsouth.net>; Raleigh Dadamo <dadamor at aol.com>; David Horwitz
<air2619 at aol.com>; David Pirmann <pirmann at quuxuum.org>; Neil Carlson
<ndc10169 at webtv.net>; Chris Gatermann <cgatermann at yahoo.com>; Robert Arce
<r516169 at yahoo.com>; KELVIN WILKE <kwilke4 at sbcglobal.net>; Raymond Crapo Jr
<raycrapo at prodigy.net>; Carlos Mercado <cmercado at rochester.rr.com>; Merill
Resnick <mhr62 at aol.com>; Jack May <jack.may at americomm.net>; Lewis Hitch
<lewis.hitch at verizon.net>; Michael Richmond
<neosho_wildcat_graduate_2007 at yahoo.com>; Thurston Clark
<trolleydude1 at yahoo.com>; Edward Havens <edhavens at cox.net>; Jeff Marinoff
<jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com>; Harry Pinsker <hp1944 at aol.com>; Joseph Eid
<jeidj at comcast.net>; Scott Becker <sbecker at pa-trolley.org>; Trolley One
<isartorny at verizon.net>; Russ Jackson <rejmhj at netzero.net>; C. K. Leverett
<cleverett at comcast.net>; Charles Greene <charles.greene99 at gmail.com>; Ronald
Kupin <ronkup at hotmail.com>; Nate Gerstein <atsnate at comcast.net>; Melvin Bernero
<mbernero at prodigy.net>; Favorite Daugher <cue37 at charter.net>; Trolley Two
<waltk6 at optonline.net>; Rich Parente <urr316 at optonline.net>; Evan Jennings
<evan at tmny.org>; Harold Golk <haroldgolk at comcast.net>; Matthew Mummert
<mlmummert at comcast.net>; Bob Paradise <rjp500 at snet.net>; Bill Volkmer
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<biged_irt5543 at bresnan.net>; #1 Son <tgatermann at gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 10:50:45 AM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
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John
Please have a look at PRC Running Time Spec #4169, attached. While I =
unfortunately do not have a date for this, it is obviously before the =
abandonment of Rt. 38 as a separate route and clearly shows that on =
Saturdays there were trips which were run as 42/38 from Clearview Loop =
over the Beechview route. This is consistent with my recollection of =
operations in the early 1960s. How early 42/38 was so designated and =
signed, I do not know; however, I have a public timetable dated 4 =
September 1962 which shows this arrangement. However, cars were =
operated that way as far back as 1904. The 1914 route listing shows =
#312-Mt. Lebanon-Beechview but the destination sign for this route is =
shown as 42, not 42/38. There is no separate showing for a route =
operating to Dormont Jct. only, however, #312 had a variant-Neeld Avenue =
with destination sign 43 which may have in those years provided all the =
cutback service to Beechview. Also of note is route 304-Castle =
Shannon-Mt Lebanon, with a destination sign of 38. This was a through =
route through the tunnel to downtown. There is no listing for a =
separate transfer route which we later knew as 38A.
I agree that this shot is probably one of routine operations. Normal =
practice was for cars to change ends at Clearview, as to use the loop =
there could interfere with regular operations of looping Rt. 38 or 42/38 =
cars turning to return to downtown or South Hills Jct. Clearview loop =
was only used to turn cars coming in from Castle Shannon in emergency =
situations--and probably for the odd rail enthusiast tour!
Dwight
----- Original Message -----=20
From: John Swindler=20
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org=20
Cc: Skip Gatermann ; Unknown Holtz ; Michael Greene ; Matt Dawn ; =
Conrad Misek ; Joe Bux ; Frank Pfuhler ; E Casey ; Vic Gordon ; David =
Dillard ; John Sikorskie ; Jim Greller ; Randy Gluckman ; Bob Vogel ; =
Bradley Clark ; Mary O'Brien ; Jimmy Boylan XX ; Bill Armstrong ; =
Richard Panse ; Alex Vaughn ; Brad Noyes ; Bill Mangahas ; JJ Earl ; =
Dave Neubauer ; Jack Rush XX ; Mark Goldfeder ; Andrew Chalfen ; Michael =
Rambo Jr ; Ted Eickmann ; Bill Paulus ; Muench ; Bruce Bente ; Raleigh =
Dadamo ; David Horwitz ; David Pirmann ; Neil Carlson ; Chris Gatermann =
; Robert Arce ; KELVIN WILKE ; Raymond Crapo Jr ; Carlos Mercado ; =
Merill Resnick ; Jack May ; Lewis Hitch ; Michael Richmond ; Thurston =
Clark ; Edward Havens ; Jeff Marinoff ; Harry Pinsker ; Joseph Eid ; =
Scott Becker ; Trolley One ; Russ Jackson ; C. K. Leverett ; Charles =
Greene ; Ronald Kupin ; Nate Gerstein ; Melvin Bernero ; Favorite =
Daugher ; Trolley Two ; Rich Parente ; Evan Jennings ; Harold Golk ; =
Matthew Mummert ; Bob Paradise ; Bill Volkmer ; Andrew Sisk ; Charlie =
Dennis ; Herald Wind ; Edward Davis ; #1 Son=20
Sent: Thursday, 12 August, 2010 23:26
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
For starters, not 42/38. 42/38 was created when route 38 abandoned as =
separate route circa 1961, long after 4322 was scrapped.
And not running on route 42 which terminated at Dormont Wye. This is =
the 38A layover at Clearview loop. This view is looking west towards =
Washington Blvd.
And Alfred St. is to right of this picture. Not visible at this =
angle. Pavement to right would have been used by the three Mt. Lebanon =
shuttle bus lines - Inglewood, Jefferson and Sunset Hills. They came =
down an alley to left of photographer
And what is the motorman doing??? Probably pulling the pole down for =
his next trip to Castle Shannon.
Perhaps not such a rare use after all.
Cheers
John
> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> Subject: [PRCo] Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:29:16 -0400
> CC: biker4 at sbcglobal.net; atholtz at optonline.net; =
michael_t_greene at yahoo.com; mwntrolley at aol.com; crmisek at aol.com; =
baybridgecondo3 at aol.com; PFUHLER at MSN.COM; ecasey9631 at aol.com; =
lipizzansvt2 at aol.com; jwne at temple.edu; sparkyberadi at aol.com; =
jcgreller at hcia.org; randygluck1 at aol.com; chuchubob at yahoo.com; =
bhc1 at aol.com; maryobrien at charter.net; jamesboylan at compuserve.com; =
wja1933 at juno.com; brtpcc at mac.com; alexlvaughn at yahoo.com; nozze4 at att.net; =
newkirk at optonline.net; dukeoq at aol.com; it1569djn at earthlink.net; =
rush123 at cox.net; frgs4evr at aol.com; chalfen at pobox.upenn.edu; =
mrambojr at yahoo.com; twe2431 at sbcglobal.net; studedude43 at hotmail.com; =
cemuench2 at comcast.net; bbente at bellsouth.net; dadamor at aol.com; =
air2619 at aol.com; pirmann at quuxuum.org; ndc10169 at webtv.net; =
cgatermann at yahoo.com; r516169 at yahoo.com; kwilke4 at sbcglobal.net; =
raycrapo at prodigy.net; cmercado at rochester.rr.com; mhr62 at aol.com; =
jack.may at americomm.net; lewis.hitch at verizon.net; =
neosho_wildcat_graduate_2007 at yahoo.com; trolleydude1 at yahoo.c!
om; edhavens at cox.net; jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com; hp1944 at aol.com; =
jeidj at comcast.net; sbecker at pa-trolley.org; "isartorny"@verizon.net; =
rejmhj at netzero.net; cleverett at comcast.net; charles.greene99 at gmail.com; =
ronkup at hotmail.com; atsnate at comcast.net; mbernero at prodigy.net; =
cue37 at charter.net; waltk6 at optonline.net; urr316 at optonline.net; =
evan at tmny.org; haroldgolk at comcast.net; mlmummert at comcast.net; =
rjp500 at snet.net; bvolkmer at bellsouth.net; asisk at sbcglobal.net; =
cdennis220 at aol.com; hlwind384 at comcast.net; biged_IRT5543 at bresnan.net; =
tgatermann at gmail.com
> To: Pittsburgh-Railways at Dementia.Org
>=20
> The photograph forwarded with this e-mail was on Skip Gaterman's =
daily postcards. It's unusual because route 42 called for double-end =
cars. Anyone want to venture an opinion why a low 4300 would be =
running on Dormont? The only suggestion I might have is that there =
might have been 42/38 trips that terminated in Castle Shannon and then =
became shuttles.=20
> Or might it be a trip from South Hills Car House to Mount Lebanon to =
put the car in service? =20
>=20
> The location, by the way, is Washington Road at Alfred Street =
(Clearview Loop). It is the entrance to the loop from Washington Road. =
The building over the center door is on the northwest side of =
Washington Road. This I have confirmed from Bing Maps. All of these =
buildings exist today (or at the time the aerial photographs were made). =
=20
>=20
> Skip claims there was no identification on the photo other than it =
is a rare use of this type car. No kidding!!!!
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