[PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409

[Dwight Long]

John

The copy I sent you yesterday is indeed (one piece) from a schedule set =
for the route and, perhaps not surprisingly, I got it from John Baxter. =
It may well be the last one issued before Rt 38 was changed in May 1963 =
to eliminate the operation on West Liberty Avenue .  I was away from Pgh =
from mid-1960 to December 1962 and do not believe I obtained this before =
I left.  In like manner, the 4 September 1962 public timetable, =
reproduced here for you, may have been the last public TT.  I have a =
bunch of them and most likely obtained them as "worthless" at the time =
of elimination of 38 as a separate route.

As you can see, the 42/38 service was daylight on Saturday only, but ran =
as such in owl hours other days. This will also answer your question =
about 38 being a separate route (most of the time).  I don't think this =
TT reflects Drake or Shannon cars which may have used the Beechview line =
in counter-rush hour flow.

You are correct that there was a crossover just inbound from Dormont =
Jct.  I have pictures of at least one PERC tour car using it and the =
tail of the Dormont wye to do just what you say.  However, I cannot =
recall this ever being done routinely. When we did it on our tours, =
there was a lot of digging and "persuading" the points to move to permit =
this route!

Your recollection of 42 only operating (during daytime) on Sundays to =
the wye tallies with the 1962 schedule.  Also, workday trips reversed =
here as well.  What the schedule does NOT show is any Rt. 43 service.  I =
am guessing by that time that Neeld loop was only used to put late cars =
back onto schedule when they had a follower to pick up pax intending to =
travel beyond.  Your observation from the 20s-era track map (which I do =
not have and have never seen) would jibe perfectly with the 1914 use of =
Neeld Avenue 43 terminus as the base for Beechview service in that era.

Many of the routes which are identified in the 1914 route listing by PRC =
3-digit route numbers do not show destination sign numbers in that =
publication.  The ones that do not have destination sign numbers, aside =
from the interurbans and interurban local lines, are indeed "transfer =
cars" or otherwise non-trunk routes.  I cannot answer your question =
about 55 and 56 except to say that latter-day 55, 56, 57 and 58 all had =
the same destination sign numbers in the 1914 publication.  I cannot, =
however, find a listing for what we knew as Rt. 59?!  Maybe my eyes have =
played tricks on me, but I just don't see it.  Surely it must have been =
built and in operation by then?

I know exactly where 4322 was posed for the photo.  Using that bit of =
track was SOP when 38A was operated as a shuttle, this to avoid tying up =
regular 38 cars by using the Clearview loop to turn 38A shuttles (which =
also involved a messy back up move--there was no wye connection there as =
there was in a similar arrangement at Riverview).

Dwight
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: John Swindler=20
  To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org ; Fred Schneider=20
  Cc: Skip Gatermann ; Unknown Holtz ; Michael Greene ; Matt Dawn ; =
Conrad Misek ; Joe Bux ; Frank Pfuhler ; E Casey ; Vic Gordon ; David =
Dillard ; John Sikorskie ; Jim Greller ; Randy Gluckman ; Bob Vogel ; =
Bradley Clark ; Mary O'Brien ; Jimmy Boylan XX ; Bill Armstrong ; =
Richard Panse ; Alex Vaughn ; Brad Noyes ; Bill Mangahas ; JJ Earl ; =
Dave Neubauer ; Jack Rush XX ; Mark Goldfeder ; Andrew Chalfen ; Michael =
Rambo Jr ; Ted Eickmann ; Bill Paulus ; Muench ; Bruce Bente ; Raleigh =
Dadamo ; David Horwitz ; David Pirmann ; Neil Carlson ; Chris Gatermann =
; Robert Arce ; KELVIN WILKE ; Raymond Crapo Jr ; Carlos Mercado ; =
Merill Resnick ; Jack May ; Lewis Hitch ; Michael Richmond ; Thurston =
Clark ; Edward Havens ; Jeff Marinoff ; Harry Pinsker ; Joseph Eid ; =
Scott Becker ; Trolley One ; Russ Jackson ; C. K. Leverett ; Charles =
Greene ; Ronald Kupin ; Nate Gerstein ; Melvin Bernero ; Favorite =
Daugher ; Trolley Two ; Rich Parente ; Evan Jennings ; Harold Golk ; =
Matthew Mummert ; Bob Paradise ; Bill Volkmer ; Andrew Sisk ; Charlie =
Dennis ; Herald Wind ; Edward Davis ; #1 Son=20
  Sent: Friday, 13 August, 2010 13:10
  Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409



  =20
  Hi Dwight
  =20
  This is another instance where I wish I had had the insight to ask a =
lot more questions of John Baxter while he was still alive, particularly =
in early 1960s.  He was out next door neighbor during 1950s, and we =
blame him for my electric railfan interest.
  =20
  In particular, this looks like something used internally within the =
schedule department.  (wish I'd asked John B. for a complete set of all =
forms used by PRC schedule department)
  =20
  Concerning your public timetable dtd 9/4/62, does it show 38 as a =
separate route, or was the outer end already combined with 42?  I should =
have a circa 1960 schedule downstairs which might show if the 42/38 =
routing was for getting cars to Tunnel carhouse, or for late =
evening/night service.  PRC watched their nickels.
  =20
  When W. Liberty Ave. section of route 38 abandoned, the outbound 42 =
connection to Washington Rd. was changed from single to double track.  =
Also, I think there was a crossover in W. Liberty inbound of Dormont =
Wye.  This would allow an outbound 42 car to go inbound on W. Liberty. =20
  =20
  Most of my recollection is of the 42/38 operation. route 38 was =
already gone as a separate entity.   But there is the memory that =
Beechview operated only to Dormont Wye on Sundays, circa 1960.  During =
Sunday pass riding, when my 42 car reached end of line around noon, I'd =
retire to Isaly's across the street from Dormont Wye for a 25 cent =
chocolate milk shake.
  =20
  According to 1920s track map, in the early years, 42 was single track =
with passing sidings Neeld Ave. to Dormont Wye (Junction).  There was a =
passing siding at Potomac.  Guess a lot had to do with how the area =
developed.
  =20
  As for route numbers, they appear around 1914, probably to make =
various routes easier to identify in downtown, E. Liberty and Oakland.  =
Initially the low floor cars could display two numbers.  It didn't take =
long, according to some PUC records, for route consolidations to occur, =
freeing up some numbers.  As for outlying shuttle routes, they didn't =
need number - the public knew where the car was destined.  "Donora" =
sufficed up to the end.  I've wondered about the early 1920s low floor =
purchase effect on route numbering.  Were 55 and 56 among the last =
routes to get low floors, accounting for use of 55A and 56A for short =
turns??=20
  =20
  Back to Clearview Loop - car 4322 is on a short piece of track that =
would not interfere with route 38 service.  We used it on several =
fantrips, usually having to track down a auto owner who was blocking the =
tracks on Sundays.
  =20
  Cheers
  John

  >=20
  > John
  >=20
  > Please have a look at PRC Running Time Spec #4169, attached. While I =
=3D
  > unfortunately do not have a date for this, it is obviously before =
the =3D
  > abandonment of Rt. 38 as a separate route and clearly shows that on =
=3D
  > Saturdays there were trips which were run as 42/38 from Clearview =
Loop =3D
  > over the Beechview route. This is consistent with my recollection of =
=3D
  > operations in the early 1960s. How early 42/38 was so designated and =
=3D
  > signed, I do not know; however, I have a public timetable dated 4 =
=3D
  > September 1962 which shows this arrangement. However, cars were =3D
  > operated that way as far back as 1904. The 1914 route listing shows =
=3D
  > #312-Mt. Lebanon-Beechview but the destination sign for this route =
is =3D
  > shown as 42, not 42/38. There is no separate showing for a route =3D
  > operating to Dormont Jct. only, however, #312 had a variant-Neeld =
Avenue =3D
  > with destination sign 43 which may have in those years provided all =
the =3D
  > cutback service to Beechview. Also of note is route 304-Castle =3D
  > Shannon-Mt Lebanon, with a destination sign of 38. This was a =
through =3D
  > route through the tunnel to downtown. There is no listing for a =3D
  > separate transfer route which we later knew as 38A.
  >=20
  > I agree that this shot is probably one of routine operations. Normal =
=3D
  > practice was for cars to change ends at Clearview, as to use the =
loop =3D
  > there could interfere with regular operations of looping Rt. 38 or =
42/38 =3D
  > cars turning to return to downtown or South Hills Jct. Clearview =
loop =3D
  > was only used to turn cars coming in from Castle Shannon in =
emergency =3D
  > situations--and probably for the odd rail enthusiast tour!
  >=20
  > Dwight
  >=20
  >=20
  > ----- Original Message -----=3D20
  > From: John Swindler=3D20
  > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org=3D20
  > Cc: Skip Gatermann ; Unknown Holtz ; Michael Greene ; Matt Dawn ; =
=3D
  > Conrad Misek ; Joe Bux ; Frank Pfuhler ; E Casey ; Vic Gordon ; =
David =3D
  > Dillard ; John Sikorskie ; Jim Greller ; Randy Gluckman ; Bob Vogel =
; =3D
  > Bradley Clark ; Mary O'Brien ; Jimmy Boylan XX ; Bill Armstrong ; =
=3D
  > Richard Panse ; Alex Vaughn ; Brad Noyes ; Bill Mangahas ; JJ Earl ; =
=3D
  > Dave Neubauer ; Jack Rush XX ; Mark Goldfeder ; Andrew Chalfen ; =
Michael =3D
  > Rambo Jr ; Ted Eickmann ; Bill Paulus ; Muench ; Bruce Bente ; =
Raleigh =3D
  > Dadamo ; David Horwitz ; David Pirmann ; Neil Carlson ; Chris =
Gatermann =3D
  > ; Robert Arce ; KELVIN WILKE ; Raymond Crapo Jr ; Carlos Mercado ; =
=3D
  > Merill Resnick ; Jack May ; Lewis Hitch ; Michael Richmond ; =
Thurston =3D
  > Clark ; Edward Havens ; Jeff Marinoff ; Harry Pinsker ; Joseph Eid ; =
=3D
  > Scott Becker ; Trolley One ; Russ Jackson ; C. K. Leverett ; Charles =
=3D
  > Greene ; Ronald Kupin ; Nate Gerstein ; Melvin Bernero ; Favorite =
=3D
  > Daugher ; Trolley Two ; Rich Parente ; Evan Jennings ; Harold Golk ; =
=3D
  > Matthew Mummert ; Bob Paradise ; Bill Volkmer ; Andrew Sisk ; =
Charlie =3D
  > Dennis ; Herald Wind ; Edward Davis ; #1 Son=3D20
  > Sent: Thursday, 12 August, 2010 23:26
  > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  > For starters, not 42/38. 42/38 was created when route 38 abandoned =
as =3D
  > separate route circa 1961, long after 4322 was scrapped.
  >=20
  > And not running on route 42 which terminated at Dormont Wye. This is =
=3D
  > the 38A layover at Clearview loop. This view is looking west towards =
=3D
  > Washington Blvd.
  >=20
  > And Alfred St. is to right of this picture. Not visible at this =3D
  > angle. Pavement to right would have been used by the three Mt. =
Lebanon =3D
  > shuttle bus lines - Inglewood, Jefferson and Sunset Hills. They came =
=3D
  > down an alley to left of photographer
  >=20
  > And what is the motorman doing??? Probably pulling the pole down for =
=3D
  > his next trip to Castle Shannon.
  >=20
  > Perhaps not such a rare use after all.
  >=20
  > Cheers
  > John
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  > > From: fwschneider at comcast.net
  > > Subject: [PRCo] Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
  > > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:29:16 -0400
  > > CC: biker4 at sbcglobal.net; atholtz at optonline.net; =3D
  > michael_t_greene at yahoo.com; mwntrolley at aol.com; crmisek at aol.com; =3D
  > baybridgecondo3 at aol.com; PFUHLER at MSN.COM; ecasey9631 at aol.com; =3D
  > lipizzansvt2 at aol.com; jwne at temple.edu; sparkyberadi at aol.com; =3D
  > jcgreller at hcia.org; randygluck1 at aol.com; chuchubob at yahoo.com; =3D
  > bhc1 at aol.com; maryobrien at charter.net; jamesboylan at compuserve.com; =
=3D
  > wja1933 at juno.com; brtpcc at mac.com; alexlvaughn at yahoo.com; =
nozze4 at att.net; =3D
  > newkirk at optonline.net; dukeoq at aol.com; it1569djn at earthlink.net; =3D
  > rush123 at cox.net; frgs4evr at aol.com; chalfen at pobox.upenn.edu; =3D
  > mrambojr at yahoo.com; twe2431 at sbcglobal.net; studedude43 at hotmail.com; =
=3D
  > cemuench2 at comcast.net; bbente at bellsouth.net; dadamor at aol.com; =3D
  > air2619 at aol.com; pirmann at quuxuum.org; ndc10169 at webtv.net; =3D
  > cgatermann at yahoo.com; r516169 at yahoo.com; kwilke4 at sbcglobal.net; =3D
  > raycrapo at prodigy.net; cmercado at rochester.rr.com; mhr62 at aol.com; =3D
  > jack.may at americomm.net; lewis.hitch at verizon.net; =3D
  > neosho_wildcat_graduate_2007 at yahoo.com; trolleydude1 at yahoo.c!
  > om; edhavens at cox.net; jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com; hp1944 at aol.com; =3D
  > jeidj at comcast.net; sbecker at pa-trolley.org; "isartorny"@verizon.net; =
=3D
  > rejmhj at netzero.net; cleverett at comcast.net; =
charles.greene99 at gmail.com; =3D
  > ronkup at hotmail.com; atsnate at comcast.net; mbernero at prodigy.net; =3D
  > cue37 at charter.net; waltk6 at optonline.net; urr316 at optonline.net; =3D
  > evan at tmny.org; haroldgolk at comcast.net; mlmummert at comcast.net; =3D
  > rjp500 at snet.net; bvolkmer at bellsouth.net; asisk at sbcglobal.net; =3D
  > cdennis220 at aol.com; hlwind384 at comcast.net; =
biged_IRT5543 at bresnan.net; =3D
  > tgatermann at gmail.com
  > > To: Pittsburgh-Railways at Dementia.Org
  > >=3D20
  > > The photograph forwarded with this e-mail was on Skip Gaterman's =
=3D
  > daily postcards. It's unusual because route 42 called for double-end =
=3D
  > cars. Anyone want to venture an opinion why a low 4300 would be =3D
  > running on Dormont? The only suggestion I might have is that there =
=3D
  > might have been 42/38 trips that terminated in Castle Shannon and =
then =3D
  > became shuttles.=3D20
  > > Or might it be a trip from South Hills Car House to Mount Lebanon =
to =3D
  > put the car in service? =3D20
  > >=3D20
  > > The location, by the way, is Washington Road at Alfred Street =3D
  > (Clearview Loop). It is the entrance to the loop from Washington =
Road. =3D
  > The building over the center door is on the northwest side of =3D
  > Washington Road. This I have confirmed from Bing Maps. All of these =
=3D
  > buildings exist today (or at the time the aerial photographs were =
made). =3D
  > =3D20
  > >=3D20
  > > Skip claims there was no identification on the photo other than it =
=3D
  > is a rare use of this type car. No kidding!!!!
  > >=3D20
  > >=3D20
  > >=3D20
  > >=3D20
  > >=3D20
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  > =
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=3D
  > eg
  > >=3D20
  > >=3D20
  > >=3D20
  > =3D20
  >=20
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  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
        =20




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