[PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Fred Schneider
fwschneider at comcast.net
Sat Jul 3 19:28:23 EDT 2010
Remember that picture we have of the chap welding on the bridge in McKeesport? What year was that?
On Jul 3, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Edward H. Lybarger wrote:
> Don't you think West Penn just hired Pittsburgh Railways to do the work?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Fred
> Schneider
> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 5:43 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>
> West Penn had to maintain the rails and wires. I am not sure it was a
> small amount of maintenance expense considering West Penn had to keep the
> wires up and the rail intact for about a quarter century. At one time that
> route had some fairly heavy traffic considering the steel mills in McKeeport
> and Duquesne. Of course, after 1938 it was not easy for West Penn to
> maintain either because they had to truck everything out of Connellsville.
>
>
> On Jul 3, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Dwight Long wrote:
>
>> Ed
>>
>> As I recall, it was sold as WP was winding down all its investment in
>> rail properties. It was either 1951 or early 1952. Prior to that it
>> was just a relatively small stream of income for WP that required no
>> particular effort or expense on WP's part (after an initial dispute
>> between WP and PRC was settled),
>>
>> Dwight
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Edward H. Lybarger
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Sent: Saturday, 03 July, 2010 09:11
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>>
>> 10-4, Dwight. I think I provided some operational history of this route
> to
>> the list once upon a time...West Penn owned it as far as Hamilton Avenue
>> (plus a spur there) but operated it only for a short time circa 1920-1924
>> while PRCo was embroiled in a municipal franchise dispute. West Penn
>> finally sold the track to PRC in the early 1950s.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
> Dwight
>> Long
>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 2:20 AM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> PRC had a habit of recycling destination sign route numbers. The Rt 97
> to
>> which I was referring was the McKeesport-Duquesne line. The number
>> apparently was transferred to the Wilmerding route after the Duquesne
> local
>> line was abandoned, and after the Wilmerding route, 1914 PRC route 408
>> (destination sign route 98--again to be recycled in the 50s!) had been
> cut
>> back from Glassport to the Tenth Ward.
>>
>> Dwight
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Edward H. Lybarger
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Sent: Friday, 02 July, 2010 14:11
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>>
>> Route 97 was the second of two lines between McKeesport and
>> Wilmerding...and
>> the one that put the ancestor-of-West Penn line out of business. The
>> McKeesport, Duquesne & Wilmerding route was circuitous while the one
> that
>> was Route 97 was very direct.
>>
>> The MD&W line was written up in Street Railway Review in 1894 at page
> 170.
>> It's online for those who would like to read it. The line closed prior
> to
>> the 1904 consolidation. I have the date in a news clipping but not
> here.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
> Dwight
>> Long
>> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 11:38 PM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>> John
>>
>> Rt 53 Carrick used the Tenth Street Bridge and then Carson Street to
> South
>> 18th Street in later years. In earlier years it operated on Carson
> from
>> South 18th to South 22nd, thence over the Brady Street (South 22nd St.)
>> Bridge to Forbes and into the Triangle by that street. This was PRC
> Rt.
>> 305
>> of 1914.
>>
>> In latter years it was possible to short turn Rt. 50 cars (or special
>> moves)
>> at South 18th Street and South 22nd Street. In early days there was a
>> maze
>> of trackage on the South Side and other permutations were possible.
> There
>> was one regular route shown turning at 22nd in the 1914 route
> listing--PRC
>> route 301A--destination sign 51 (later used on Bon Air shuttle car). At
>> this
>> time what we know as the "regular" Carson Street route was PRC route
> 301,
>> destination sign (then as at the end) 50. Then there was PRC route 310,
>> Carson Street via 10th Street Bridge, destination sign 52. The route
>> guide
>> does not show the outer destination for this route, so it is possible
> that
>> it was operated with double end cars and went to South 36th Street,
> which
>> would make sense in view of the later destination sign number for the
>> shuttle car, which is not shown in the 1914 guide. The shuttle from
> South
>> 30th to South 36th Streets was Rt. 52 in its last days and lasted until
> 2
>> August 1950.
>>
>> The South 36th Street to Hays shuttle or "transfer car" was shown as
> route
>> 302 in the 1914 compendium. I do not have information as to when it
> was
>> discontinued, but suspect prior to the Depression. Fred? BTW, in 1914
>> route 313 was destination sign 39--Brookline!
>>
>> As to Pirl Street and Rt 97, I don't think there was any connection, as
>> Rt.
>> 97 operated into downtown McKeesport, either to the Ringgold Street
>> terminal
>> (owing to its ancestry as a West Penn route) or to a short turn
> location
>> at
>> the B&O station. And it was gone by 1931, while Fred shows the Pirl
>> Street
>> loop as opening in 1938. {RC Rt 407, destination sign 56, turned at the
>> McKeesport car house until it closed, whenever that was (dates conflict
>> between 1936 and 1937). The loop was needed as there was no practical
>> place
>> to turn single end cars on 407/56 after the 10th Ward once the car
> house
>> was
>> lost as a turnaround point. Until it opened, pax coming into McKeesport
>> via
>> the Calhoun Park route had to transfer to a Glassport car or Wilmerding
>> bus
>> in order to get to downtown McKeesport.
>>
>> I recall clearly the Brentwood Loop being taken over by the Boron (we
>> called
>> it "Moron") gas station. There was a nice waiting shelter there prior
> to
>> this with a newsstand incorporated into it, which was a casualty of the
>> gas
>> station construction.
>>
>> I do not have any recollection of gas stations at either Pirl Street or
>> South 30th Street, but that does not mean they were not there. Perhaps
>> they
>> were installed after the tram era. However, I do recall a gas station
> (I
>> think this one was Boron also, but would have to dig out some old
> slides
>> to
>> verify this) being constructed on the site of the Glenwood Car House,
>> about
>> the time Rt. 56 was bustituted.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Dwight
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: John Swindler
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Sent: Thursday, 01 July, 2010 21:53
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Fred
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the question concerned PRC leasing terminal property for gas
>> stations. In addition to Carrick loop, did this also include Pirl St.
> and
>> perhaps 30th St. loop????
>>
>>
>>
>> And as for route 313, when was the service cut back from Hays? Also,
>> service to 36th St. continued into 1920s - and perhaps longer. In
> later
>> years it was a shuttle between 30th and 36th. There were four routes
> on
>> Carson - two via Smithfield St. bridge and two via 10th St. One
>> short-turned around 22nd St., another at 30th, another at 36th and
> fourth
>> either at 30th (which was a car barn) or went to Carrick. (It's been
>> awhile
>> since I looked at this route info., and too lazy to search in
> basement.)
>>
>>
>> And as for Pirl St., 98 also terminated there. Pirl St. might have
>> become
>> needed when 97 was abandoned or when McKeesport closed. Have you
> checked
>> the property deeds in Allegheny Co. Court house for when property
> acquired
>> by PRC???
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a pix on digital history site of a low floor car exiting
>> southbound from McKeesport car house.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>>> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:08:31 -0400
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>
>>> Route 313 was shortened from 36th to 30th when single-end PAYE cars
>> were
>> installed February 19, 1913. It remained there until February 26, 1966
>> when
>> abandoned.
>>>
>>> Route 407 ran out of McKeesport car house until it closed. March 15,
>> 1937 shorteneded to 10th Ward, McKeesport because of bridge repairs.
>> Extended to what may have been a new Pirl Street loop on March 9, 1938.
>> Last
>> full day of service August 31, 1963.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:43 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wasn't 56 McKeesport at Pirl St. another??? What about the 50 Carson
>> at 30th St.???? (75% sure of former, only 25% (guess) of latter - its
> been
>> a
>> long time)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> PRC was just out to make a buck anyway they could.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: mrb190 at pitt.edu
>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:05:12 -0400
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>>>>
>>>>> Ironic, eh? Anyway, this is a video of the terminus of the 53
>> Carrick:
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrbhYcrev-Q
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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