[PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Edward H. Lybarger
trams2 at comcast.net
Sat Jul 3 19:36:31 EDT 2010
1928 - when the bridge was new and when West Penn was still running in
McKeesport. I'm guessing that once they were gone, they could consider
contracting, especially after the Second War. Can't prove it, though.
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Schneider
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 7:28 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Remember that picture we have of the chap welding on the bridge in
McKeesport? What year was that?
On Jul 3, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Edward H. Lybarger wrote:
> Don't you think West Penn just hired Pittsburgh Railways to do the work?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
> Fred Schneider
> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 5:43 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>
> West Penn had to maintain the rails and wires. I am not sure it was a
> small amount of maintenance expense considering West Penn had to keep the
> wires up and the rail intact for about a quarter century. At one time
that
> route had some fairly heavy traffic considering the steel mills in
McKeeport
> and Duquesne. Of course, after 1938 it was not easy for West Penn to
> maintain either because they had to truck everything out of Connellsville.
>
>
> On Jul 3, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Dwight Long wrote:
>
>> Ed
>>
>> As I recall, it was sold as WP was winding down all its investment in
>> rail properties. It was either 1951 or early 1952. Prior to that it
>> was just a relatively small stream of income for WP that required no
>> particular effort or expense on WP's part (after an initial dispute
>> between WP and PRC was settled),
>>
>> Dwight
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Edward H. Lybarger
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Sent: Saturday, 03 July, 2010 09:11
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>>
>> 10-4, Dwight. I think I provided some operational history of this
>> route
> to
>> the list once upon a time...West Penn owned it as far as Hamilton
>> Avenue (plus a spur there) but operated it only for a short time
>> circa 1920-1924 while PRCo was embroiled in a municipal franchise
>> dispute. West Penn finally sold the track to PRC in the early 1950s.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
> Dwight
>> Long
>> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 2:20 AM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> PRC had a habit of recycling destination sign route numbers. The Rt
>> 97
> to
>> which I was referring was the McKeesport-Duquesne line. The number
>> apparently was transferred to the Wilmerding route after the Duquesne
> local
>> line was abandoned, and after the Wilmerding route, 1914 PRC route
>> 408 (destination sign route 98--again to be recycled in the 50s!) had
>> been
> cut
>> back from Glassport to the Tenth Ward.
>>
>> Dwight
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Edward H. Lybarger
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Sent: Friday, 02 July, 2010 14:11
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>>
>> Route 97 was the second of two lines between McKeesport and
>> Wilmerding...and
>> the one that put the ancestor-of-West Penn line out of business. The
>> McKeesport, Duquesne & Wilmerding route was circuitous while the
>> one
> that
>> was Route 97 was very direct.
>>
>> The MD&W line was written up in Street Railway Review in 1894 at
>> page
> 170.
>> It's online for those who would like to read it. The line closed
>> prior
> to
>> the 1904 consolidation. I have the date in a news clipping but not
> here.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
> Dwight
>> Long
>> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 11:38 PM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>> John
>>
>> Rt 53 Carrick used the Tenth Street Bridge and then Carson Street
>> to
> South
>> 18th Street in later years. In earlier years it operated on Carson
> from
>> South 18th to South 22nd, thence over the Brady Street (South 22nd St.)
>> Bridge to Forbes and into the Triangle by that street. This was
>> PRC
> Rt.
>> 305
>> of 1914.
>>
>> In latter years it was possible to short turn Rt. 50 cars (or
>> special
>> moves)
>> at South 18th Street and South 22nd Street. In early days there
>> was a maze
>> of trackage on the South Side and other permutations were possible.
> There
>> was one regular route shown turning at 22nd in the 1914 route
> listing--PRC
>> route 301A--destination sign 51 (later used on Bon Air shuttle
>> car). At this
>> time what we know as the "regular" Carson Street route was PRC
>> route
> 301,
>> destination sign (then as at the end) 50. Then there was PRC route 310,
>> Carson Street via 10th Street Bridge, destination sign 52. The
>> route guide
>> does not show the outer destination for this route, so it is
>> possible
> that
>> it was operated with double end cars and went to South 36th Street,
> which
>> would make sense in view of the later destination sign number for the
>> shuttle car, which is not shown in the 1914 guide. The shuttle from
> South
>> 30th to South 36th Streets was Rt. 52 in its last days and lasted
>> until
> 2
>> August 1950.
>>
>> The South 36th Street to Hays shuttle or "transfer car" was shown
>> as
> route
>> 302 in the 1914 compendium. I do not have information as to when
>> it
> was
>> discontinued, but suspect prior to the Depression. Fred? BTW, in 1914
>> route 313 was destination sign 39--Brookline!
>>
>> As to Pirl Street and Rt 97, I don't think there was any
>> connection, as Rt.
>> 97 operated into downtown McKeesport, either to the Ringgold Street
>> terminal
>> (owing to its ancestry as a West Penn route) or to a short turn
> location
>> at
>> the B&O station. And it was gone by 1931, while Fred shows the
>> Pirl Street
>> loop as opening in 1938. {RC Rt 407, destination sign 56, turned at the
>> McKeesport car house until it closed, whenever that was (dates conflict
>> between 1936 and 1937). The loop was needed as there was no
>> practical place
>> to turn single end cars on 407/56 after the 10th Ward once the car
> house
>> was
>> lost as a turnaround point. Until it opened, pax coming into
>> McKeesport via
>> the Calhoun Park route had to transfer to a Glassport car or
>> Wilmerding bus
>> in order to get to downtown McKeesport.
>>
>> I recall clearly the Brentwood Loop being taken over by the Boron
>> (we called
>> it "Moron") gas station. There was a nice waiting shelter there
>> prior
> to
>> this with a newsstand incorporated into it, which was a casualty of
>> the gas
>> station construction.
>>
>> I do not have any recollection of gas stations at either Pirl Street or
>> South 30th Street, but that does not mean they were not there.
>> Perhaps they
>> were installed after the tram era. However, I do recall a gas
>> station
> (I
>> think this one was Boron also, but would have to dig out some old
> slides
>> to
>> verify this) being constructed on the site of the Glenwood Car
>> House, about
>> the time Rt. 56 was bustituted.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Dwight
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: John Swindler
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Sent: Thursday, 01 July, 2010 21:53
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Fred
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the question concerned PRC leasing terminal property for gas
>> stations. In addition to Carrick loop, did this also include Pirl St.
> and
>> perhaps 30th St. loop????
>>
>>
>>
>> And as for route 313, when was the service cut back from Hays? Also,
>> service to 36th St. continued into 1920s - and perhaps longer. In
> later
>> years it was a shuttle between 30th and 36th. There were four
>> routes
> on
>> Carson - two via Smithfield St. bridge and two via 10th St. One
>> short-turned around 22nd St., another at 30th, another at 36th and
> fourth
>> either at 30th (which was a car barn) or went to Carrick. (It's
>> been awhile
>> since I looked at this route info., and too lazy to search in
> basement.)
>>
>>
>> And as for Pirl St., 98 also terminated there. Pirl St. might
>> have become
>> needed when 97 was abandoned or when McKeesport closed. Have you
> checked
>> the property deeds in Allegheny Co. Court house for when property
> acquired
>> by PRC???
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a pix on digital history site of a low floor car exiting
>> southbound from McKeesport car house.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>>> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:08:31 -0400
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>
>>> Route 313 was shortened from 36th to 30th when single-end PAYE cars
>> were
>> installed February 19, 1913. It remained there until February 26,
>> 1966 when
>> abandoned.
>>>
>>> Route 407 ran out of McKeesport car house until it closed. March 15,
>> 1937 shorteneded to 10th Ward, McKeesport because of bridge repairs.
>> Extended to what may have been a new Pirl Street loop on March 9, 1938.
>> Last
>> full day of service August 31, 1963.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:43 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wasn't 56 McKeesport at Pirl St. another??? What about the 50
>>>> Carson
>> at 30th St.???? (75% sure of former, only 25% (guess) of latter -
>> its
> been
>> a
>> long time)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> PRC was just out to make a buck anyway they could.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: mrb190 at pitt.edu
>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:05:12 -0400
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
>>>>>
>>>>> Ironic, eh? Anyway, this is a video of the terminus of the 53
>> Carrick:
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrbhYcrev-Q
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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