[PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question

[richard allman]

oops, you're right, but I stand by my preference for the air car body!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 11:16 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question


> No.   The St. Louis 1600s were not air cars.
>
> Ever single car in St. Louis was an all-electric.   The 1500s were the 
> first all-electrics built but they had a pre-war body.
>
> Go back and read the PCC books again, Rich.
>
> Bill Rossell moved from Brooklyn to St. Louis after B&QT was sold to the 
> city in 1940.   Apparently because of B&QT's involvement with the PCC 
> between 1929 and 1935, and Bill's intimacy with it as management in 
> Brooklyn, he wanted to continually improve the car.   In essence the test 
> bed for improvements moved from Brooklyn to St. Louis in 1940 along with 
> Bill.
>
> Remember the first standee window car was in Brooklyn in 1935.  The next 
> one was in St. Louis in 1941.
>
> Those car full lights over the headlights ... remember them from Brooklyn? 
> They turned up next in St. Louis because Bill went there.
>
> And the major change was the all-electric design in 1940 with the 1500s, 
> 1600s and 1700s.   There is a TRC bulletin comparing the St. Louis 1500s 
> with the Pittsburgh 1200s built at the same time which concluded that you 
> couldn't run one of those St. Louis drum brake cars on Pittsburgh's hills. 
> I think I moved that book along with all my other PCC archives to the PTM 
> library.
>
>
>
> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:03 PM, richard allman wrote:
>
>> Very plausible explanation, Fred!
>> ok-time to stir the pot a bit-I've a tough couple weeks!
>> I have always liked the St. Louis cars, (though have only ridden them in 
>> San
>> Francisco and Shaker Heights) because they were very graceful in their
>> lines. I have a general preference for air cars because of their
>> appearance-somewhat more pleasing to me than the all-electrics-which I 
>> like
>> just a wee tad less. Yeah, yeah, the SLPS 1600's were air cars, but the
>> 1700's had the basic air car body w/ standee windows and both series were
>> wider(9'). Some ancient sage   said :
>> De gustibus non disputandum est - which means taste cannot be disputed. 
>> One
>> more time-I really like the air cars! Let the battle begin!!!!
>> RICH
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:03 PM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question
>>
>>
>>> Because the 1500s were largely assigned to the Broadway line at the end
>>> and it was the first PCC line to go bus.    In 1940, before the second
>>> order of PCCs, Delmar was being serviced with motor cars (about the age 
>>> of
>>> the Pittsburgh 4100s) pulling trailers.   The city may have still had
>>> Birneys ...  I have pictures of them in the 1930s.
>>> By the late 1940s there were still Peter Witts on some routes, some
>>> incredibly ancient stuff still running and the 1600s were running on the
>>> county lines out to Kirkwood which were much more picturesque than
>>> following 1500s up and down Broadway through industrial districts.    It
>>> would be a question like ... would you rather photograph cars in
>>> Pittsburgh on Butler Street or running to Washington PA or in the middle
>>> of Ardmore Blvd.   You know what is going to win.
>>>
>>> I have pictures of the 1500s.   Steve Maguire had one good negative that 
>>> I
>>> printed years ago but I don't know if he took it ... just found it in 
>>> his
>>> sand box and rewashed it.   He traded a lot and you never really knew 
>>> what
>>> was his and what came from others.
>>>
>>> Bill Janssen had a quite a number of the 1500s ... he grew up in Peoria
>>> and I think he still had a sister (a nun for that matter) who lived in
>>> that area ... which gave him a reason to go back.   Today his collection
>>> is at the East Troy museum.
>>>
>>> Might also have something to do with an ideological thing .... 'When you
>>> have one the last midwest interurban network at your back door, would 
>>> you
>>> waste your Saturdays or Sundays on PCCs or would you go out and 
>>> photograph
>>> the Illinois Terminal?'  I think the ITS would win.   The Broadway line 
>>> in
>>> St. Louis was abandoned in 1955; the Illinois Terminal was still running
>>> trains from St. Louis to Peoria until 1956.   You would ignore those 
>>> (and
>>> I'm quoting Andy Maginnis) "steel wheeled buses" in the hope that the 
>>> ITS
>>> would be forced to substitute an ancient orange interurban car for one 
>>> the
>>> newer stainless steel cars this weekend.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 6:48 PM, richard allman wrote:
>>>
>>>> as long as we're on the subject, there a a ton of great shots out there
>>>> by
>>>> excellent photographers through the PCC era in St. Louis, but hardly 
>>>> any
>>>> of
>>>> the 1500's. Wonder why?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 6:10 PM
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> OK ,,, so you guys are quoting what Steve and I put in the PCC books.
>>>>> No
>>>>> way I can remember every detail we put in those books three decades 
>>>>> ago
>>>>> nor would I even try.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's much more fun keeping up with the new systems today.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 1:50 PM, Fred Schneider wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, I see what you are talking about.   Perhaps SLPS did have their 
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> in-house radio system.   It shows up best in color against a dark
>>>>>> background.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please view these photos:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.davesrailpix.com/stl/htm/stl018.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>