[PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question

Fred Schneider fwschneider at comcast.net
Sat Nov 20 08:57:33 EST 2010 

And you were not the only one who didn't like standee windows.

Remember Powell Groaner's statement, "I will not have those little apertures in my cars."   And so the Kansas City cars came without standee windows.   So did the Red Arrow 11-24 series bodies which didn't qualify as PCCs because of the trucks.  Illinois Terminal also didn't go with the flow.   Dallas didn't either but their cars were probably designed much earlier.   

If we had continued to buy equipment like Germany did and if TRC had remained viable, can you imagine what a PCC would be like today?   Probably a low-floor car, air-conditioned, huge windows, ugly looking as sin, with AC motors.   Probably not much different than what you see out there anyway but it would have been standardized instead of every property having its own reward for consultants.  That might knock a few hundred thousand dollars off each car.   

Of course we would still have the French Canadians arguing that they have the right to support Bombardier even if it does violate Canadian federal law.   

Oh well.   


On Nov 20, 2010, at 1:06 AM, richard allman wrote:

> oops, you're right, but I stand by my preference for the air car body!
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 11:16 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question
> 
> 
>> No.   The St. Louis 1600s were not air cars.
>> 
>> Ever single car in St. Louis was an all-electric.   The 1500s were the 
>> first all-electrics built but they had a pre-war body.
>> 
>> Go back and read the PCC books again, Rich.
>> 
>> Bill Rossell moved from Brooklyn to St. Louis after B&QT was sold to the 
>> city in 1940.   Apparently because of B&QT's involvement with the PCC 
>> between 1929 and 1935, and Bill's intimacy with it as management in 
>> Brooklyn, he wanted to continually improve the car.   In essence the test 
>> bed for improvements moved from Brooklyn to St. Louis in 1940 along with 
>> Bill.
>> 
>> Remember the first standee window car was in Brooklyn in 1935.  The next 
>> one was in St. Louis in 1941.
>> 
>> Those car full lights over the headlights ... remember them from Brooklyn? 
>> They turned up next in St. Louis because Bill went there.
>> 
>> And the major change was the all-electric design in 1940 with the 1500s, 
>> 1600s and 1700s.   There is a TRC bulletin comparing the St. Louis 1500s 
>> with the Pittsburgh 1200s built at the same time which concluded that you 
>> couldn't run one of those St. Louis drum brake cars on Pittsburgh's hills. 
>> I think I moved that book along with all my other PCC archives to the PTM 
>> library.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:03 PM, richard allman wrote:
>> 
>>> Very plausible explanation, Fred!
>>> ok-time to stir the pot a bit-I've a tough couple weeks!
>>> I have always liked the St. Louis cars, (though have only ridden them in 
>>> San
>>> Francisco and Shaker Heights) because they were very graceful in their
>>> lines. I have a general preference for air cars because of their
>>> appearance-somewhat more pleasing to me than the all-electrics-which I 
>>> like
>>> just a wee tad less. Yeah, yeah, the SLPS 1600's were air cars, but the
>>> 1700's had the basic air car body w/ standee windows and both series were
>>> wider(9'). Some ancient sage   said :
>>> De gustibus non disputandum est - which means taste cannot be disputed. 
>>> One
>>> more time-I really like the air cars! Let the battle begin!!!!
>>> RICH
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:03 PM
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Because the 1500s were largely assigned to the Broadway line at the end
>>>> and it was the first PCC line to go bus.    In 1940, before the second
>>>> order of PCCs, Delmar was being serviced with motor cars (about the age 
>>>> of
>>>> the Pittsburgh 4100s) pulling trailers.   The city may have still had
>>>> Birneys ...  I have pictures of them in the 1930s.
>>>> By the late 1940s there were still Peter Witts on some routes, some
>>>> incredibly ancient stuff still running and the 1600s were running on the
>>>> county lines out to Kirkwood which were much more picturesque than
>>>> following 1500s up and down Broadway through industrial districts.    It
>>>> would be a question like ... would you rather photograph cars in
>>>> Pittsburgh on Butler Street or running to Washington PA or in the middle
>>>> of Ardmore Blvd.   You know what is going to win.
>>>> 
>>>> I have pictures of the 1500s.   Steve Maguire had one good negative that 
>>>> I
>>>> printed years ago but I don't know if he took it ... just found it in 
>>>> his
>>>> sand box and rewashed it.   He traded a lot and you never really knew 
>>>> what
>>>> was his and what came from others.
>>>> 
>>>> Bill Janssen had a quite a number of the 1500s ... he grew up in Peoria
>>>> and I think he still had a sister (a nun for that matter) who lived in
>>>> that area ... which gave him a reason to go back.   Today his collection
>>>> is at the East Troy museum.
>>>> 
>>>> Might also have something to do with an ideological thing .... 'When you
>>>> have one the last midwest interurban network at your back door, would 
>>>> you
>>>> waste your Saturdays or Sundays on PCCs or would you go out and 
>>>> photograph
>>>> the Illinois Terminal?'  I think the ITS would win.   The Broadway line 
>>>> in
>>>> St. Louis was abandoned in 1955; the Illinois Terminal was still running
>>>> trains from St. Louis to Peoria until 1956.   You would ignore those 
>>>> (and
>>>> I'm quoting Andy Maginnis) "steel wheeled buses" in the hope that the 
>>>> ITS
>>>> would be forced to substitute an ancient orange interurban car for one 
>>>> the
>>>> newer stainless steel cars this weekend.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 6:48 PM, richard allman wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> as long as we're on the subject, there a a ton of great shots out there
>>>>> by
>>>>> excellent photographers through the PCC era in St. Louis, but hardly 
>>>>> any
>>>>> of
>>>>> the 1500's. Wonder why?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 6:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> OK ,,, so you guys are quoting what Steve and I put in the PCC books.
>>>>>> No
>>>>>> way I can remember every detail we put in those books three decades 
>>>>>> ago
>>>>>> nor would I even try.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's much more fun keeping up with the new systems today.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 1:50 PM, Fred Schneider wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> OK, I see what you are talking about.   Perhaps SLPS did have their 
>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>> in-house radio system.   It shows up best in color against a dark
>>>>>>> background.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Please view these photos:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.davesrailpix.com/stl/htm/stl018.htm
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>

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