[PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question

Sat Nov 20 10:07:42 EST 2010

my preference had less to do w/ presence or absence of standee windows than 
the graceful shape of the pre-war cars-and the wartime cars, as opposed to 
the somewhat more sculptured lines of the post-war cars-not that I like one 
and despise the other, just a mere preference, though I have modeled more of 
the post-war stuff, more due to availability than anything else!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>; "richard allman" 
<allmanr at verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:57 AM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question


> And you were not the only one who didn't like standee windows.
>
> Remember Powell Groaner's statement, "I will not have those little 
> apertures in my cars."   And so the Kansas City cars came without standee 
> windows.   So did the Red Arrow 11-24 series bodies which didn't qualify 
> as PCCs because of the trucks.  Illinois Terminal also didn't go with the 
> flow.   Dallas didn't either but their cars were probably designed much 
> earlier.
>
> If we had continued to buy equipment like Germany did and if TRC had 
> remained viable, can you imagine what a PCC would be like today? 
> Probably a low-floor car, air-conditioned, huge windows, ugly looking as 
> sin, with AC motors.   Probably not much different than what you see out 
> there anyway but it would have been standardized instead of every property 
> having its own reward for consultants.  That might knock a few hundred 
> thousand dollars off each car.
>
> Of course we would still have the French Canadians arguing that they have 
> the right to support Bombardier even if it does violate Canadian federal 
> law.
>
> Oh well.
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2010, at 1:06 AM, richard allman wrote:
>
>> oops, you're right, but I stand by my preference for the air car body!
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 11:16 PM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question
>>
>>
>>> No.   The St. Louis 1600s were not air cars.
>>>
>>> Ever single car in St. Louis was an all-electric.   The 1500s were the
>>> first all-electrics built but they had a pre-war body.
>>>
>>> Go back and read the PCC books again, Rich.
>>>
>>> Bill Rossell moved from Brooklyn to St. Louis after B&QT was sold to the
>>> city in 1940.   Apparently because of B&QT's involvement with the PCC
>>> between 1929 and 1935, and Bill's intimacy with it as management in
>>> Brooklyn, he wanted to continually improve the car.   In essence the 
>>> test
>>> bed for improvements moved from Brooklyn to St. Louis in 1940 along with
>>> Bill.
>>>
>>> Remember the first standee window car was in Brooklyn in 1935.  The next
>>> one was in St. Louis in 1941.
>>>
>>> Those car full lights over the headlights ... remember them from 
>>> Brooklyn?
>>> They turned up next in St. Louis because Bill went there.
>>>
>>> And the major change was the all-electric design in 1940 with the 1500s,
>>> 1600s and 1700s.   There is a TRC bulletin comparing the St. Louis 1500s
>>> with the Pittsburgh 1200s built at the same time which concluded that 
>>> you
>>> couldn't run one of those St. Louis drum brake cars on Pittsburgh's 
>>> hills.
>>> I think I moved that book along with all my other PCC archives to the 
>>> PTM
>>> library.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:03 PM, richard allman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Very plausible explanation, Fred!
>>>> ok-time to stir the pot a bit-I've a tough couple weeks!
>>>> I have always liked the St. Louis cars, (though have only ridden them 
>>>> in
>>>> San
>>>> Francisco and Shaker Heights) because they were very graceful in their
>>>> lines. I have a general preference for air cars because of their
>>>> appearance-somewhat more pleasing to me than the all-electrics-which I
>>>> like
>>>> just a wee tad less. Yeah, yeah, the SLPS 1600's were air cars, but the
>>>> 1700's had the basic air car body w/ standee windows and both series 
>>>> were
>>>> wider(9'). Some ancient sage   said :
>>>> De gustibus non disputandum est - which means taste cannot be disputed.
>>>> One
>>>> more time-I really like the air cars! Let the battle begin!!!!
>>>> RICH
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:03 PM
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Because the 1500s were largely assigned to the Broadway line at the 
>>>>> end
>>>>> and it was the first PCC line to go bus.    In 1940, before the second
>>>>> order of PCCs, Delmar was being serviced with motor cars (about the 
>>>>> age
>>>>> of
>>>>> the Pittsburgh 4100s) pulling trailers.   The city may have still had
>>>>> Birneys ...  I have pictures of them in the 1930s.
>>>>> By the late 1940s there were still Peter Witts on some routes, some
>>>>> incredibly ancient stuff still running and the 1600s were running on 
>>>>> the
>>>>> county lines out to Kirkwood which were much more picturesque than
>>>>> following 1500s up and down Broadway through industrial districts. 
>>>>> It
>>>>> would be a question like ... would you rather photograph cars in
>>>>> Pittsburgh on Butler Street or running to Washington PA or in the 
>>>>> middle
>>>>> of Ardmore Blvd.   You know what is going to win.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have pictures of the 1500s.   Steve Maguire had one good negative 
>>>>> that
>>>>> I
>>>>> printed years ago but I don't know if he took it ... just found it in
>>>>> his
>>>>> sand box and rewashed it.   He traded a lot and you never really knew
>>>>> what
>>>>> was his and what came from others.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Janssen had a quite a number of the 1500s ... he grew up in 
>>>>> Peoria
>>>>> and I think he still had a sister (a nun for that matter) who lived in
>>>>> that area ... which gave him a reason to go back.   Today his 
>>>>> collection
>>>>> is at the East Troy museum.
>>>>>
>>>>> Might also have something to do with an ideological thing .... 'When 
>>>>> you
>>>>> have one the last midwest interurban network at your back door, would
>>>>> you
>>>>> waste your Saturdays or Sundays on PCCs or would you go out and
>>>>> photograph
>>>>> the Illinois Terminal?'  I think the ITS would win.   The Broadway 
>>>>> line
>>>>> in
>>>>> St. Louis was abandoned in 1955; the Illinois Terminal was still 
>>>>> running
>>>>> trains from St. Louis to Peoria until 1956.   You would ignore those
>>>>> (and
>>>>> I'm quoting Andy Maginnis) "steel wheeled buses" in the hope that the
>>>>> ITS
>>>>> would be forced to substitute an ancient orange interurban car for one
>>>>> the
>>>>> newer stainless steel cars this weekend.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 6:48 PM, richard allman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> as long as we're on the subject, there a a ton of great shots out 
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> excellent photographers through the PCC era in St. Louis, but hardly
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the 1500's. Wonder why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 6:10 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SLPS/SHRT/PTC/MUNI PCC Question
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK ,,, so you guys are quoting what Steve and I put in the PCC 
>>>>>>> books.
>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>> way I can remember every detail we put in those books three decades
>>>>>>> ago
>>>>>>> nor would I even try.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's much more fun keeping up with the new systems today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 1:50 PM, Fred Schneider wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, I see what you are talking about.   Perhaps SLPS did have their
>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>> in-house radio system.   It shows up best in color against a dark
>>>>>>>> background.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please view these photos:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.davesrailpix.com/stl/htm/stl018.htm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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