[PRCo] Re: Sand

[Fred Schneider]

Wasn't the accident at Brookside stop?



On Mar 1, 2011, at 2:21 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:

> This is interesting Mr.Brannon;
> From the archives I learned it could have been a 
> cornfield meet on the Washington interurban that
> contributed to the no sand ban.  A motorman 
> braked strongly for a passenger running to catch
> the car.  Using sand broke contact for the signals
> resulting in the cornfield meet.  Was it 3702 and
> 3709 which collided at Walther's,  latter-day Drake?
> Jan-18-1943!  History runs in circles and repeats.
> 
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Herb Brannon <hrbran at cavtel.net>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 4:42:56 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Fw: Changing Track Switches
> 
> That's right. My error. The "counting in and out"
> was similar to Nacod operation. The "no sand' 
> rule was never applied to 36 during my time.
> 
> 
> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 16:26, Edward H. Lybarger <trams2 at comcast.net>wrote:
> 
>> Rt. 36 had US&S ABP signals rather than Nachods. 
>> Rt W had been the initial installation of the US&S
>> equipment on the system, in 1928.
>> 
>> Ed
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Herb
>> Brannon
>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 4:19 PM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Fw: Changing Track Switches
>> 
>> Jim, good to hear from you again. I can fill in some of
>> what you have written. Shaker Heights RT would raise
>> one pole on 2, 3, or 4 car trains. The problem
>> is that sometimes it would be the pole on the lead car
>> and sometimes the pole on the rear car. So I have to
>> do more research into exactly where the overhead
>> contactor was located at Shaker Blvd and Van Aken Blvd.
>> 
>> I had asked about San Francisco because I have seen
>> photos taken (after reconstruction in the late
>> 1970s/early 80s) at the West Portal of the Twin
>> Peaks Tunnel showing a man sitting on a chair at the switch
>> on the Eastbound track. The guy had a switch iron in
>> his hand and apparently would throw the switch
>> manually depending if a car wanted to continue into the tunnel or
>> make a left turn on Ulloa Street. It gave the appearance that the new (at
>> that time) Boeing cars had no way to throw switches.
>> 
>> As for not dropping sand on the 35/36/37 lines. When I
>> started operating the PCCs in 1973 that was the
>> ironclad rule. However, by 1975 that was out the
>> window and they didn't seem to have any more
>> problems that the usual with a system which was
>> early 20th Century tech. They did still use the magnetic
>> track brake track cleaners however and always put those
>> cars on the 35 and 36. The 36 was Nachod signals with
>> overhead contactors anyway.
>> 
>> As for switches setting themselves by themselves.
>> The switch on the Inbound track at S Hills Jct in front of
>> the Route Foremans office at the Administration Building
>> would take a fit and set itself for the curve into the old
>> 44, 47 tracks.  It did it to me one time. I was loading
>> passengers.  Fortunately it sounded like a gun firing
>> each time it would throw. I heard it and looked and
>> sure enough it had reset for the curve to go around the
>> Administration Building. I got out and set it back with
>> the switch iron then had to explain to the Route
>> Foreman that, no, I did not want to go around
>> the Admin Bldg. It finally quit doing that when all the equipment
>> associated with the derail just ahead of that switch was removed.
>> 
>> It was a rule that we were not to actually "power" the
>> PCC car to set the switch. I operated every PCC in the
>> fleet and never had a track switch toggle fail. PATransit
>> rail operations in the 1970s and early 80s still ran
>> on Pittsburgh Railways Company methods of operation and
>> still had many former PRCo employees working.
>> Those employees knew how to keep an old system running.
>> 
>> Thanks for the information.
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:52, Phillip Clark Campbell
>> <pcc_sr at yahoo.com>wrote:
>> 
>>> Mr.Brannon
>>> 
>>> I wrote to Mr.Holland in San Francisco;  included are details of the
>>> system there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Phil
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----
>>> From: "-> PRCo-- Holland James B.
>>> To: Phillip Clark Campbell
>>> Sent: Mon, February 27, 2011 9:26:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Changing Track Switches
>>> 
>>> Good Morning, Phil  --  Greetings,   Herb!!,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The old system of  Power On  (toggle on many but not all PCCs) or
>>> Coast  through an overhead contactor can still be used with both pans
>>> and // or poles;  trains of cars using an overhead collector then need
>>> special circuitry to prevent other cars  in the trains from resetting
>>> the turnout while the train passes
>>> over  same!       Toronto, Boston, Shaker etc. did use
>>> PCC trains;  I am not familiar with their operations when several
>>> poles on the train are raised.
>>> 
>>> To get around the special circuits needed for trains and overhead
>>> contact activated turnouts,  San Francisco Muni surface electric
>>> turnouts are activated by  'track circuitry'
>>> so any rail car can activate them.       This is accompanied
>>> by a 3-aspect signal,  all  'white'  lights:::
>>> 
>>>  1. Vertical Bar for straight through
>>>  2. Angled or Horizontal Bar Pointing toward Diverge
>>>  3. Round White Light
>>> 
>>> Every  "X"-seconds  (5-10-seconds)  either the Vertical or
>>> Angled Bar display, never both.       An operator will watch
>>> this signal and move his train into the  Track Block immediately ahead
>>> of the turnout when he gets the correct
>>> display  --  Straight Through or Diverge.       The point will set,
>>> or remain set if already in the correct position,  and the round
>>> white light will display to show it is  'Locked.'       The track
>>> block is long enough so that the following truck enters before the
>>> leading truck exits so any length train could pass through
>>> while keeping the turnout locked.       After the train leaves
>>> the track block the round white light extinguishes and the display of
>>> Vertical or Angle Bar resumes on timer.
>>> 
>>> Being a native of Pittsburgh I am keenly aware that use of the sander
>>> is absolutely forbidden on the interurbans because it  'possibly'
>>> breaks contact for the signaling
>>> system.       Several of 17-series  Interurbans had brushes
>>> mounted in the track brake to continually sweep the track
>>> clear.       A light outside the door side front windshield
>>> revealed that this brush was activated.       I, personally,
>>> did not use sand at these track circuits.       I mentioned
>>> this problem to the Powers That Be but it was ignored.
>>> 
>>> Church and Duboce is where the J & N lrvs enter // leave the subway;
>>> surface PCCs have a switch immediately ahead of the portal to run
>>> around the
>>> subway entrance to Market Street.       The inbound
>>> switch activates through the track circuits.       I was
>>> piloting a 2-car N-train OB, stopped behind a J in front of me that
>>> was sitting on top of the special work for the
>>> surface car diverge.       As it  was a rainy day, the
>>> operator of a 2-car N train inbound used Sand all the
>>> way across the intersection.       He  'apparently'
>>> received the light to confirm the point was set  "But"
>>> the sand apparently interrupted the circuit, the last truck set the
>>> point for Market Street, so the tail of the 2-car train smashed into
>>> the side of the train ahead
>>> of me with considerable force.       Literally seconds
>>> before that an Inspector was talking to the operator using the
>>> operators left side window!
>>> Muni never did issue a bulletin about sanding.
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> When operated by overhead contactor, this contactor was placed  "about
>>> 1-Car Length Plus 8-feet"  ahead
>>> of the point.       This would  prevent a following car from
>>> resetting the point before the previous car cleared the
>>> turnout.       With the rear king pin being about 12-feet
>>> in from the back, the last axle // wheel set is 9-feet from the back
>>> so a following car can't possibly reset
>>> the point for the leader.       This can't happen with track
>>> circuit switches because they lock in position  -- if a following
>>> train enters the block before cleared then the point remains set
>>> unless moved manually.
>>> 
>>> Subway turnouts are thrown by Dispatcher and or computer.
>>>      Bypass toggles are located at the turnout;  if the turnout is
>>> set incorrectly the operator stops the train at the toggle and
>>> just reaches out his window to reset.      But it is slow,
>>> maybe a minute before a signal to proceed is obtained.
>>> 
>>> The  Market street historic cars use a coil embedded in the street at
>>> the turnout;  pressing toggles inside activates the
>>> coil when the car passes over it.       I do not know the exact
>>> details;  sorry.       To my knowledge,  lrvs have not been
>>> retrofitted with this system;  they still use the track circuitry on
>>> the surface.
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> Our TrolleyCoaches  'did'  use  "Selectric"  turnouts with
>>> several power turnouts on the system.       "Selectric"
>>> uses overhead contactors right at the points.       They are
>>> staggered so that they are activated one at a time for going
>>> straight through.       When a coach takes the 'diverge' both
>>> contactors are hit at the  same time, the points then set for the
>>> turn, and immediately upon clearing the shoe activates
>>> a lever to reset the points to straight.       The Power
>>> switches, like for PCCs, were too sensitive and activated
>>> when not wanted.       They are totally eliminated.
>>> 
>>> Many Selectrics are gone but replaced with a system using a radio
>>> signal that work off the turn signal thus there are three signals sent
>>> to an antenna loop on the curb side overhead
>>> before the turnout:  Right, Left, And Straight.       If this
>>> signal generator fails one can't set switches!       Solar
>>> flares are known to interrupt whole power grids, cell phones,
>>> satellite transmissions, plane signals, etc. and
>>> apparently these switches.       We had a terrible time for a
>>> month or two in the  early 1990s with trolley poles going every
>>> which direction but the correct.      I detailed this in a report
>>> with dates, times, places, even switches I was walking by
>>> that activated without a coach in sight:       Nothing in the
>>> form of a bulletin from Muni.       SEPTA  is often referred
>>> to as  INEPTA  but that Title Belongs to the San Francisco Muni!!
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> Nothing is ever clear cut.       "In the Good 'Ol Days"  of
>>> overhead contactors,  PRCo  forbade operators using the power pedal to
>>> set the points for diverge;  it was
>>> just the opposite in San Francisco.       While the SF PCCs
>>> had the toggle,  most didn't work!       On the  Muni 1101s
>>> (ex-SLPS cars)  the track toggle actually engaged the drum brakes
>>> "Only"  if power was modestly applied;  this drew extra power through
>>> the contactor to set the point.
>>> Using the track brake with power was Far More Effective~!!!
>>>      But the tens didn't have either mode for track setting; Baby
>>> Tens did have toggle which usually didn't work so one had to hit the
>>> power and brake after the point set~!!!
>>> 
>>> TTC  and  SLPS  used  "Necessity Action."
>>> I do not know the exact details but  'apparently'  action was only
>>> needed to change the point;  if it is set for the correct direction
>>> nothing need be done.
>>> 
>>> Boston,  DCT,  and possibly Baltimore used  "Another"
>>> system.        "All"  turnouts were assigned Right and Left
>>> "Legs"  regardless of configuration:
>>> 
>>>   * Coast thru contactor for Left  LEG
>>>   * Power thru contactor for Right LEG
>>>   * Thus using  "Power"  on a left turnout one would go
>>>         straight through the Right  "Leg."
>>>   * Using Power on a right turnout one would diverge to the right,
>>>         again the Right  "Leg."
>>> 
>>> Nothing is standardized;  each operator can claim unique
>>> needs.       There are probably dozens of other systems out there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jim
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 2011.02.27 9:15 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
>>>> Mr.Holland,
>>>> 
>>>> Could you indicate how SF Muni lrvs operated track switches?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Phil
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----
>>>> From: Herb Brannon <hrbran at cavtel.net>
>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>> Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 8:29:37 PM
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Changing Track Switches
>>>> 
>>>> As we know, PRCo/PATransit PCC car (using trolley poles)
>>> operators changed automatic track switches by using the  "Track
>>> Switch" control on the dash. Now with the PAT  LRV cars (using
>>> pantographs) the routes and switches  are set by computer. This is
>>> also true in Cleveland on the  entire Red Line and the Green and Blue
>>> (former Shaker  Hgts Rapid) Lines as far East as E. 79th Station.
>>> After that its back to old style manual control on the  Shaker lines.
>>> Now, SEPTA still uses trolley poles so the  "Track Switch" on the
>>> operators console is probably still  there and is used. On the other
>>> hand,  most systems now  use pantographs. Like for instance MUNI in
>>> San Francisco  and I'm sure they have a lot of switches to go through.
>>> My question is, how do the systems using pantograph  current
>>> collection change track switches? I know how it's  done in Cleveland,
>>> but not other places. Anyone know?
>>>> --
>>>> Herb Brannon
>>>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> 
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