[PRCo] Re: Sand
Edward H. Lybarger
trams2 at comcast.net
Tue Mar 1 18:31:10 EST 2011
It was near Brookside, south of the siding. At least as far south as the
first intermediate signal, which would be beyond the stop.
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Schneider
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 2:49 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Sand
Wasn't the accident at Brookside stop?
On Mar 1, 2011, at 2:21 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> This is interesting Mr.Brannon;
> From the archives I learned it could have been a cornfield meet on the
> Washington interurban that contributed to the no sand ban. A motorman
> braked strongly for a passenger running to catch the car. Using sand
> broke contact for the signals resulting in the cornfield meet. Was it
> 3702 and
> 3709 which collided at Walther's, latter-day Drake?
> Jan-18-1943! History runs in circles and repeats.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Herb Brannon <hrbran at cavtel.net>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 4:42:56 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Fw: Changing Track Switches
>
> That's right. My error. The "counting in and out"
> was similar to Nacod operation. The "no sand'
> rule was never applied to 36 during my time.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 16:26, Edward H. Lybarger
<trams2 at comcast.net>wrote:
>
>> Rt. 36 had US&S ABP signals rather than Nachods.
>> Rt W had been the initial installation of the US&S equipment on the
>> system, in 1928.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
>> Herb Brannon
>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 4:19 PM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Fw: Changing Track Switches
>>
>> Jim, good to hear from you again. I can fill in some of what you have
>> written. Shaker Heights RT would raise one pole on 2, 3, or 4 car
>> trains. The problem is that sometimes it would be the pole on the
>> lead car and sometimes the pole on the rear car. So I have to do more
>> research into exactly where the overhead contactor was located at
>> Shaker Blvd and Van Aken Blvd.
>>
>> I had asked about San Francisco because I have seen photos taken
>> (after reconstruction in the late 1970s/early 80s) at the West Portal
>> of the Twin Peaks Tunnel showing a man sitting on a chair at the
>> switch on the Eastbound track. The guy had a switch iron in his hand
>> and apparently would throw the switch manually depending if a car
>> wanted to continue into the tunnel or make a left turn on Ulloa
>> Street. It gave the appearance that the new (at that time) Boeing
>> cars had no way to throw switches.
>>
>> As for not dropping sand on the 35/36/37 lines. When I started
>> operating the PCCs in 1973 that was the ironclad rule. However, by
>> 1975 that was out the window and they didn't seem to have any more
>> problems that the usual with a system which was early 20th Century
>> tech. They did still use the magnetic track brake track cleaners
>> however and always put those cars on the 35 and 36. The 36 was Nachod
>> signals with overhead contactors anyway.
>>
>> As for switches setting themselves by themselves.
>> The switch on the Inbound track at S Hills Jct in front of the Route
>> Foremans office at the Administration Building would take a fit and
>> set itself for the curve into the old 44, 47 tracks. It did it to me
>> one time. I was loading passengers. Fortunately it sounded like a
>> gun firing each time it would throw. I heard it and looked and sure
>> enough it had reset for the curve to go around the Administration
>> Building. I got out and set it back with the switch iron then had to
>> explain to the Route Foreman that, no, I did not want to go around
>> the Admin Bldg. It finally quit doing that when all the equipment
>> associated with the derail just ahead of that switch was removed.
>>
>> It was a rule that we were not to actually "power" the PCC car to set
>> the switch. I operated every PCC in the fleet and never had a track
>> switch toggle fail. PATransit rail operations in the 1970s and early
>> 80s still ran on Pittsburgh Railways Company methods of operation and
>> still had many former PRCo employees working.
>> Those employees knew how to keep an old system running.
>>
>> Thanks for the information.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:52, Phillip Clark Campbell
>> <pcc_sr at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Mr.Brannon
>>>
>>> I wrote to Mr.Holland in San Francisco; included are details of the
>>> system there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----
>>> From: "-> PRCo-- Holland James B.
>>> To: Phillip Clark Campbell
>>> Sent: Mon, February 27, 2011 9:26:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Changing Track Switches
>>>
>>> Good Morning, Phil -- Greetings, Herb!!,
>>>
>>>
>>> The old system of Power On (toggle on many but not all PCCs) or
>>> Coast through an overhead contactor can still be used with both
>>> pans and // or poles; trains of cars using an overhead collector
>>> then need special circuitry to prevent other cars in the trains
>>> from resetting the turnout while the train passes
>>> over same! Toronto, Boston, Shaker etc. did use
>>> PCC trains; I am not familiar with their operations when several
>>> poles on the train are raised.
>>>
>>> To get around the special circuits needed for trains and overhead
>>> contact activated turnouts, San Francisco Muni surface electric
>>> turnouts are activated by 'track circuitry'
>>> so any rail car can activate them. This is accompanied
>>> by a 3-aspect signal, all 'white' lights:::
>>>
>>> 1. Vertical Bar for straight through 2. Angled or Horizontal Bar
>>> Pointing toward Diverge 3. Round White Light
>>>
>>> Every "X"-seconds (5-10-seconds) either the Vertical or
>>> Angled Bar display, never both. An operator will watch
>>> this signal and move his train into the Track Block immediately
>>> ahead of the turnout when he gets the correct
>>> display -- Straight Through or Diverge. The point will set,
>>> or remain set if already in the correct position, and the round
>>> white light will display to show it is 'Locked.' The track
>>> block is long enough so that the following truck enters before the
>>> leading truck exits so any length train could pass through
>>> while keeping the turnout locked. After the train leaves
>>> the track block the round white light extinguishes and the display
>>> of Vertical or Angle Bar resumes on timer.
>>>
>>> Being a native of Pittsburgh I am keenly aware that use of the
>>> sander is absolutely forbidden on the interurbans because it 'possibly'
>>> breaks contact for the signaling
>>> system. Several of 17-series Interurbans had brushes
>>> mounted in the track brake to continually sweep the track
>>> clear. A light outside the door side front windshield
>>> revealed that this brush was activated. I, personally,
>>> did not use sand at these track circuits. I mentioned
>>> this problem to the Powers That Be but it was ignored.
>>>
>>> Church and Duboce is where the J & N lrvs enter // leave the subway;
>>> surface PCCs have a switch immediately ahead of the portal to run
>>> around the
>>> subway entrance to Market Street. The inbound
>>> switch activates through the track circuits. I was
>>> piloting a 2-car N-train OB, stopped behind a J in front of me that
>>> was sitting on top of the special work for the
>>> surface car diverge. As it was a rainy day, the
>>> operator of a 2-car N train inbound used Sand all the
>>> way across the intersection. He 'apparently'
>>> received the light to confirm the point was set "But"
>>> the sand apparently interrupted the circuit, the last truck set the
>>> point for Market Street, so the tail of the 2-car train smashed into
>>> the side of the train ahead
>>> of me with considerable force. Literally seconds
>>> before that an Inspector was talking to the operator using the
>>> operators left side window!
>>> Muni never did issue a bulletin about sanding.
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> When operated by overhead contactor, this contactor was placed
>>> "about 1-Car Length Plus 8-feet" ahead
>>> of the point. This would prevent a following car from
>>> resetting the point before the previous car cleared the
>>> turnout. With the rear king pin being about 12-feet
>>> in from the back, the last axle // wheel set is 9-feet from the back
>>> so a following car can't possibly reset
>>> the point for the leader. This can't happen with track
>>> circuit switches because they lock in position -- if a following
>>> train enters the block before cleared then the point remains set
>>> unless moved manually.
>>>
>>> Subway turnouts are thrown by Dispatcher and or computer.
>>> Bypass toggles are located at the turnout; if the turnout is
>>> set incorrectly the operator stops the train at the toggle and
>>> just reaches out his window to reset. But it is slow,
>>> maybe a minute before a signal to proceed is obtained.
>>>
>>> The Market street historic cars use a coil embedded in the street
>>> at the turnout; pressing toggles inside activates the
>>> coil when the car passes over it. I do not know the exact
>>> details; sorry. To my knowledge, lrvs have not been
>>> retrofitted with this system; they still use the track circuitry on
>>> the surface.
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> Our TrolleyCoaches 'did' use "Selectric" turnouts with
>>> several power turnouts on the system. "Selectric"
>>> uses overhead contactors right at the points. They are
>>> staggered so that they are activated one at a time for going
>>> straight through. When a coach takes the 'diverge' both
>>> contactors are hit at the same time, the points then set for the
>>> turn, and immediately upon clearing the shoe activates
>>> a lever to reset the points to straight. The Power
>>> switches, like for PCCs, were too sensitive and activated
>>> when not wanted. They are totally eliminated.
>>>
>>> Many Selectrics are gone but replaced with a system using a radio
>>> signal that work off the turn signal thus there are three signals
>>> sent to an antenna loop on the curb side overhead
>>> before the turnout: Right, Left, And Straight. If this
>>> signal generator fails one can't set switches! Solar
>>> flares are known to interrupt whole power grids, cell phones,
>>> satellite transmissions, plane signals, etc. and
>>> apparently these switches. We had a terrible time for a
>>> month or two in the early 1990s with trolley poles going every
>>> which direction but the correct. I detailed this in a report
>>> with dates, times, places, even switches I was walking by
>>> that activated without a coach in sight: Nothing in the
>>> form of a bulletin from Muni. SEPTA is often referred
>>> to as INEPTA but that Title Belongs to the San Francisco Muni!!
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> Nothing is ever clear cut. "In the Good 'Ol Days" of
>>> overhead contactors, PRCo forbade operators using the power pedal
>>> to set the points for diverge; it was
>>> just the opposite in San Francisco. While the SF PCCs
>>> had the toggle, most didn't work! On the Muni 1101s
>>> (ex-SLPS cars) the track toggle actually engaged the drum brakes
>>> "Only" if power was modestly applied; this drew extra power
>>> through the contactor to set the point.
>>> Using the track brake with power was Far More Effective~!!!
>>> But the tens didn't have either mode for track setting; Baby
>>> Tens did have toggle which usually didn't work so one had to hit the
>>> power and brake after the point set~!!!
>>>
>>> TTC and SLPS used "Necessity Action."
>>> I do not know the exact details but 'apparently' action was only
>>> needed to change the point; if it is set for the correct direction
>>> nothing need be done.
>>>
>>> Boston, DCT, and possibly Baltimore used "Another"
>>> system. "All" turnouts were assigned Right and Left
>>> "Legs" regardless of configuration:
>>>
>>> * Coast thru contactor for Left LEG
>>> * Power thru contactor for Right LEG
>>> * Thus using "Power" on a left turnout one would go
>>> straight through the Right "Leg."
>>> * Using Power on a right turnout one would diverge to the right,
>>> again the Right "Leg."
>>>
>>> Nothing is standardized; each operator can claim unique
>>> needs. There are probably dozens of other systems out there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2011.02.27 9:15 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
>>>> Mr.Holland,
>>>>
>>>> Could you indicate how SF Muni lrvs operated track switches?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----
>>>> From: Herb Brannon <hrbran at cavtel.net>
>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>> Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 8:29:37 PM
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Changing Track Switches
>>>>
>>>> As we know, PRCo/PATransit PCC car (using trolley poles)
>>> operators changed automatic track switches by using the "Track
>>> Switch" control on the dash. Now with the PAT LRV cars (using
>>> pantographs) the routes and switches are set by computer. This is
>>> also true in Cleveland on the entire Red Line and the Green and
>>> Blue (former Shaker Hgts Rapid) Lines as far East as E. 79th Station.
>>> After that its back to old style manual control on the Shaker lines.
>>> Now, SEPTA still uses trolley poles so the "Track Switch" on the
>>> operators console is probably still there and is used. On the other
>>> hand, most systems now use pantographs. Like for instance MUNI in
>>> San Francisco and I'm sure they have a lot of switches to go through.
>>> My question is, how do the systems using pantograph current
>>> collection change track switches? I know how it's done in
>>> Cleveland, but not other places. Anyone know?
>>>> --
>>>> Herb Brannon
>>>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
>
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>
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