[PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain

[Fred Schneider]

Yes John.   A good laugh and now I can go for my Indian lunch (breakfast).


On Mar 9, 2011, at 9:26 AM, John Swindler wrote:

> 
> 
> Those definitions were worked out by consultants, circa 1970, for UMTA.   The reports were available at a Transit Exhibit at Dullas Airport during summer of 1972.  APTA and UMTA do not have the staff to create definitions.  
> 
> The definition I particularly liked was the definition of a light rail car:  a two section articulated car with three trucks.  (because this is what UMTA was in process of funding for MBTA and Muni)  I always liked to agitate by asking about the GT-4 cars in Stuttgart.
> 
> And as for standards, as a respected consultant (and Fred knows who I am quoting from New Jersey) recently observed: "public transit is an industry without any standards." 
> 
> I saw no reason to argue this opinion.
> 
> Cheers
> John 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: hrbran at cavtel.net
>> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 21:44:11 -0500
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> 
>> APTA is the "trade organization" of public transportation in the US, Canada,
>> and Mexico. Nothing more, nothing less.
>> Also, if you read what I wrote you would have read, "....politicians are
>> EXEMPT FROM THE TRUTH, " It was a polite way of saying they are not honest.
>> 
>> 
>> The original reply was to inform you that DEFINITIONS of such items as Light
>> Rail, Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, Surface Bus, Bus Rapid Transit, Electric
>> Trolley Bus, Trolley Bus, etc have been worked out by APTA and are generally
>> used throughout the transit industry. It was not meant to put you on the
>> defensive.
>> 
>> .
>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 20:30, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>wrote:
>> 
>>> Then how come the FTA and FRA aren't listening? How can APTA be the
>>> official voice for something run by politicians, whom you just said are
>>> exempt? The entire industry is political. Nothing today is apolitical.
>>> There are no private light rail lines.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mar 8, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The UK is not in North America, politicians are exempt from the truth,
>>> San
>>>> Diego calls their light rail a trolley because its a local marketing logo
>>>> just as "T" is a Pittsburgh local marketing logo , and yes, light rail,
>>>> while it has the capability of moving in "heavy mixed traffic", does not
>>>> have to. APTA is the official voice of mass transit in North America and
>>>> does not divide itself by different modes controlled by different US
>>>> Government agencies. No, I am not confused, APTA has made it crystal
>>>> clear.
>>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 17:52, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> APTA is official? Britain has their own definition. Each politician
>>> has
>>>>> his idea? San Diego calls it a trolley. Russ Jackson tells me that
>>> light
>>>>> rail has to be capable of moving in street traffic. But if we make a
>>>>> mistake and say commuter rail, then the FRA jumps in and claims
>>> jurisdiction
>>>>> instead of the FTA in this country ... that is why the Austin project
>>> didn't
>>>>> get off the ground for over a year after the planned opening date. You
>>> see
>>>>> it was light rail running as commuter rail on a national railroad ...
>>> but if
>>>>> you call it light rail (like New Jersey Transit's River line), then you
>>> keep
>>>>> the Federal Railroad Administration out of the picture and their buff
>>>>> strength requirements are not applicable when you build cars. You only
>>>>> have to provide temporal separation between trains and light rail cars.
>>>>> You confused? Why shouldn't you be?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:47 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> FYI, the official definitions for all modes of public transport, at
>>> least
>>>>>> in North America, are those definitions set forth by the American
>>> Public
>>>>>> Transportation Association (APTA) through the APTA Standards
>>> Development
>>>>>> Program.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:42, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> One of the guys who got this wanted to engage me in a contest over the
>>>>>>> definition of light rail. I refused because it is always in the mind
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the beholder and in this case, the politician.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Whatever you call it, I'm simply amazed at the passenger counts. My
>>>>> God,
>>>>>>> Derrick, 215,000 a day in one corner of the city.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:18 PM, Derrick Brashear wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> LONDON'S DOCKLAND'S LIGHT RAIL, NOT A PART OF THE UNDERGROUND, WAS
>>>>>>> CREATED TO PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION TO THE EAST INDIA DOCKS IN AN
>>> ATTEMPT
>>>>> TO
>>>>>>> HELP REVITALIZE THE AREA AFTER CONTAINERIZATION SPELLED THE END OF
>>> THEIR
>>>>>>> ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE DOCKS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE THAMES RIVER.
>>>>> The
>>>>>>> first two lines from Bank Street and Tower Bridge to Isle of Dogs and
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> Stratford in East London southward to Isle of Dogs opened in 1987
>>> using
>>>>>>> totally automated trains. An extension eastward to Canningtown
>>> opened
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> 1994, one under the Thames to Greenwich and Lewisham saw service in
>>>>> 1996,
>>>>>>> three more extensions have opened by 2009 and another will open next
>>>>> year.
>>>>>>> Docklands is now transporting over 69 million riders a year which they
>>>>>>> modestly say exceeds 100,000 a day ... weekdays probably exceed
>>> 215,000.
>>>>>>> You will notice that those short two-section articulated trains of
>>> 1987
>>>>> are
>>>>>>> past tense! If you go to visit the Tower of London or Tower Bridge
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> sneak away and look at this!
>>>>>>> .!
>>>>>>>> !
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Not only are they past tense, the equipment was sold when the tunnel
>>>>>>>> to Bank was built, apparently.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I rode it just over a week ago, from Bank to Lewisham. Seems more
>>> akin
>>>>>>>> to the airport people movers than to most light rail.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Derrick
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Herb Brannon
>>>>>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Herb Brannon
>>>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Herb Brannon
>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
>> 
>> 
>> 
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