[PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain

[John Swindler]

Fred made the comment on several occasions that there were no two identical PCC orders.  It was a common specification that allowed a lot of flexibility.  Some cars shorter, some cars longer, some cars double end, some double end without center doors, some cars wider, differences in doors, standee windows, ....  well, I really should let Fred go on with this when he gets back from lunch.  He reviewed the details - I didn't.
 
Cheers
John
 
 

 
> From: dwightlong at verizon.net
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain
> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 10:33:38 -0500
> 
> John
> 
> Arguing against it, and prevailing, would be more difficult than the Flat Land Society successfully arguing that the world is really flat.
> 
> Check out the February issue of "Railway Age;" on pg 38 is an article entitled "Standardization: Art of the possible." What does it feature as the lead photo? A PCC of course, festooned in retro-San Diego colors, on the Embarcadero.
> 
> Dwight
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: John Swindler 
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org 
> Sent: Wednesday, 09 March, 2011 09:26
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those definitions were worked out by consultants, circa 1970, for UMTA. The reports were available at a Transit Exhibit at Dullas Airport during summer of 1972. APTA and UMTA do not have the staff to create definitions. 
> 
> The definition I particularly liked was the definition of a light rail car: a two section articulated car with three trucks. (because this is what UMTA was in process of funding for MBTA and Muni) I always liked to agitate by asking about the GT-4 cars in Stuttgart.
> 
> And as for standards, as a respected consultant (and Fred knows who I am quoting from New Jersey) recently observed: "public transit is an industry without any standards." 
> 
> I saw no reason to argue this opinion.
> 
> Cheers
> John 
> 
> 
> 
> > From: hrbran at cavtel.net
> > Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 21:44:11 -0500
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > 
> > APTA is the "trade organization" of public transportation in the US, Canada,
> > and Mexico. Nothing more, nothing less.
> > Also, if you read what I wrote you would have read, "....politicians are
> > EXEMPT FROM THE TRUTH, " It was a polite way of saying they are not honest.
> > 
> > 
> > The original reply was to inform you that DEFINITIONS of such items as Light
> > Rail, Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, Surface Bus, Bus Rapid Transit, Electric
> > Trolley Bus, Trolley Bus, etc have been worked out by APTA and are generally
> > used throughout the transit industry. It was not meant to put you on the
> > defensive.
> > 
> > .
> > 
> > On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 20:30, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>wrote:
> > 
> > > Then how come the FTA and FRA aren't listening? How can APTA be the
> > > official voice for something run by politicians, whom you just said are
> > > exempt? The entire industry is political. Nothing today is apolitical.
> > > There are no private light rail lines.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 8, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
> > >
> > > > The UK is not in North America, politicians are exempt from the truth,
> > > San
> > > > Diego calls their light rail a trolley because its a local marketing logo
> > > > just as "T" is a Pittsburgh local marketing logo , and yes, light rail,
> > > > while it has the capability of moving in "heavy mixed traffic", does not
> > > > have to. APTA is the official voice of mass transit in North America and
> > > > does not divide itself by different modes controlled by different US
> > > > Government agencies. No, I am not confused, APTA has made it crystal
> > > > clear.
> > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 17:52, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> APTA is official? Britain has their own definition. Each politician
> > > has
> > > >> his idea? San Diego calls it a trolley. Russ Jackson tells me that
> > > light
> > > >> rail has to be capable of moving in street traffic. But if we make a
> > > >> mistake and say commuter rail, then the FRA jumps in and claims
> > > jurisdiction
> > > >> instead of the FTA in this country ... that is why the Austin project
> > > didn't
> > > >> get off the ground for over a year after the planned opening date. You
> > > see
> > > >> it was light rail running as commuter rail on a national railroad ...
> > > but if
> > > >> you call it light rail (like New Jersey Transit's River line), then you
> > > keep
> > > >> the Federal Railroad Administration out of the picture and their buff
> > > >> strength requirements are not applicable when you build cars. You only
> > > >> have to provide temporal separation between trains and light rail cars.
> > > >> You confused? Why shouldn't you be?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:47 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> FYI, the official definitions for all modes of public transport, at
> > > least
> > > >>> in North America, are those definitions set forth by the American
> > > Public
> > > >>> Transportation Association (APTA) through the APTA Standards
> > > Development
> > > >>> Program.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:42, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> One of the guys who got this wanted to engage me in a contest over the
> > > >>>> definition of light rail. I refused because it is always in the mind
> > > >> of
> > > >>>> the beholder and in this case, the politician.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Whatever you call it, I'm simply amazed at the passenger counts. My
> > > >> God,
> > > >>>> Derrick, 215,000 a day in one corner of the city.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:18 PM, Derrick Brashear wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>> LONDON'S DOCKLAND'S LIGHT RAIL, NOT A PART OF THE UNDERGROUND, WAS
> > > >>>> CREATED TO PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION TO THE EAST INDIA DOCKS IN AN
> > > ATTEMPT
> > > >> TO
> > > >>>> HELP REVITALIZE THE AREA AFTER CONTAINERIZATION SPELLED THE END OF
> > > THEIR
> > > >>>> ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE DOCKS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE THAMES RIVER.
> > > >> The
> > > >>>> first two lines from Bank Street and Tower Bridge to Isle of Dogs and
> > > >> from
> > > >>>> Stratford in East London southward to Isle of Dogs opened in 1987
> > > using
> > > >>>> totally automated trains. An extension eastward to Canningtown
> > > opened
> > > >> in
> > > >>>> 1994, one under the Thames to Greenwich and Lewisham saw service in
> > > >> 1996,
> > > >>>> three more extensions have opened by 2009 and another will open next
> > > >> year.
> > > >>>> Docklands is now transporting over 69 million riders a year which they
> > > >>>> modestly say exceeds 100,000 a day ... weekdays probably exceed
> > > 215,000.
> > > >>>> You will notice that those short two-section articulated trains of
> > > 1987
> > > >> are
> > > >>>> past tense! If you go to visit the Tower of London or Tower Bridge
> > > >> ...
> > > >>>> sneak away and look at this!
> > > >>>> .!
> > > >>>>> !
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Not only are they past tense, the equipment was sold when the tunnel
> > > >>>>> to Bank was built, apparently.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I rode it just over a week ago, from Bank to Lewisham. Seems more
> > > akin
> > > >>>>> to the airport people movers than to most light rail.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --
> > > >>>>> Derrick
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Herb Brannon
> > > >>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Herb Brannon
> > > > In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Herb Brannon
> > In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
>