[PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain

[Fred Schneider]

Oh yes.   Standardization.   Former PCCs in San Diego.   One of those they are rebuilding has the three pedal control scheme.   Another has the two pedal St. Louis scheme.   Who wants to place bets on when the first car will be out of service because the motorman couldn't figure out how to stop it before he hit something?


On Mar 9, 2011, at 10:33 AM, Dwight Long wrote:

> John
> 
> Arguing against it, and prevailing, would be more difficult than the Flat Land Society successfully arguing that the world is really flat.
> 
> Check out the February issue of "Railway Age;"  on pg 38 is an article entitled "Standardization:  Art of the possible."  What does it feature as the lead photo?  A PCC of course, festooned in retro-San Diego colors, on the Embarcadero.
> 
> Dwight
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: John Swindler 
>  To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org 
>  Sent: Wednesday, 09 March, 2011 09:26
>  Subject: [PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Those definitions were worked out by consultants, circa 1970, for UMTA.   The reports were available at a Transit Exhibit at Dullas Airport during summer of 1972.  APTA and UMTA do not have the staff to create definitions.  
> 
>  The definition I particularly liked was the definition of a light rail car:  a two section articulated car with three trucks.  (because this is what UMTA was in process of funding for MBTA and Muni)  I always liked to agitate by asking about the GT-4 cars in Stuttgart.
> 
>  And as for standards, as a respected consultant (and Fred knows who I am quoting from New Jersey) recently observed: "public transit is an industry without any standards." 
> 
>  I saw no reason to argue this opinion.
> 
>  Cheers
>  John 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: hrbran at cavtel.net
>> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 21:44:11 -0500
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> 
>> APTA is the "trade organization" of public transportation in the US, Canada,
>> and Mexico. Nothing more, nothing less.
>> Also, if you read what I wrote you would have read, "....politicians are
>> EXEMPT FROM THE TRUTH, " It was a polite way of saying they are not honest.
>> 
>> 
>> The original reply was to inform you that DEFINITIONS of such items as Light
>> Rail, Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, Surface Bus, Bus Rapid Transit, Electric
>> Trolley Bus, Trolley Bus, etc have been worked out by APTA and are generally
>> used throughout the transit industry. It was not meant to put you on the
>> defensive.
>> 
>> .
>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 20:30, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>wrote:
>> 
>>> Then how come the FTA and FRA aren't listening? How can APTA be the
>>> official voice for something run by politicians, whom you just said are
>>> exempt? The entire industry is political. Nothing today is apolitical.
>>> There are no private light rail lines.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mar 8, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The UK is not in North America, politicians are exempt from the truth,
>>> San
>>>> Diego calls their light rail a trolley because its a local marketing logo
>>>> just as "T" is a Pittsburgh local marketing logo , and yes, light rail,
>>>> while it has the capability of moving in "heavy mixed traffic", does not
>>>> have to. APTA is the official voice of mass transit in North America and
>>>> does not divide itself by different modes controlled by different US
>>>> Government agencies. No, I am not confused, APTA has made it crystal
>>>> clear.
>>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 17:52, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> APTA is official? Britain has their own definition. Each politician
>>> has
>>>>> his idea? San Diego calls it a trolley. Russ Jackson tells me that
>>> light
>>>>> rail has to be capable of moving in street traffic. But if we make a
>>>>> mistake and say commuter rail, then the FRA jumps in and claims
>>> jurisdiction
>>>>> instead of the FTA in this country ... that is why the Austin project
>>> didn't
>>>>> get off the ground for over a year after the planned opening date. You
>>> see
>>>>> it was light rail running as commuter rail on a national railroad ...
>>> but if
>>>>> you call it light rail (like New Jersey Transit's River line), then you
>>> keep
>>>>> the Federal Railroad Administration out of the picture and their buff
>>>>> strength requirements are not applicable when you build cars. You only
>>>>> have to provide temporal separation between trains and light rail cars.
>>>>> You confused? Why shouldn't you be?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:47 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> FYI, the official definitions for all modes of public transport, at
>>> least
>>>>>> in North America, are those definitions set forth by the American
>>> Public
>>>>>> Transportation Association (APTA) through the APTA Standards
>>> Development
>>>>>> Program.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:42, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> One of the guys who got this wanted to engage me in a contest over the
>>>>>>> definition of light rail. I refused because it is always in the mind
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the beholder and in this case, the politician.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Whatever you call it, I'm simply amazed at the passenger counts. My
>>>>> God,
>>>>>>> Derrick, 215,000 a day in one corner of the city.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:18 PM, Derrick Brashear wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> LONDON'S DOCKLAND'S LIGHT RAIL, NOT A PART OF THE UNDERGROUND, WAS
>>>>>>> CREATED TO PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION TO THE EAST INDIA DOCKS IN AN
>>> ATTEMPT
>>>>> TO
>>>>>>> HELP REVITALIZE THE AREA AFTER CONTAINERIZATION SPELLED THE END OF
>>> THEIR
>>>>>>> ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE DOCKS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE THAMES RIVER.
>>>>> The
>>>>>>> first two lines from Bank Street and Tower Bridge to Isle of Dogs and
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> Stratford in East London southward to Isle of Dogs opened in 1987
>>> using
>>>>>>> totally automated trains. An extension eastward to Canningtown
>>> opened
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> 1994, one under the Thames to Greenwich and Lewisham saw service in
>>>>> 1996,
>>>>>>> three more extensions have opened by 2009 and another will open next
>>>>> year.
>>>>>>> Docklands is now transporting over 69 million riders a year which they
>>>>>>> modestly say exceeds 100,000 a day ... weekdays probably exceed
>>> 215,000.
>>>>>>> You will notice that those short two-section articulated trains of
>>> 1987
>>>>> are
>>>>>>> past tense! If you go to visit the Tower of London or Tower Bridge
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> sneak away and look at this!
>>>>>>> .!
>>>>>>>> !
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Not only are they past tense, the equipment was sold when the tunnel
>>>>>>>> to Bank was built, apparently.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I rode it just over a week ago, from Bank to Lewisham. Seems more
>>> akin
>>>>>>>> to the airport people movers than to most light rail.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Derrick
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Herb Brannon
>>>>>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Herb Brannon
>>>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Herb Brannon
>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
>> 
>> 
>> 
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