[PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....

[Dwight Long]

John

Ah, the geography changes.

I was never aware of a time when there were not curves between the tunnel 
and West Carson, but some things that have appeared on this list recently 
suggest that MAYBE that part of the Grand Union was newer than others. 
Perhaps more light will be shed on this. Without it, of course, any cars 
feeding on to Rt. 23 from Tunnel would have to traverse Smithfield St. for 
its length and then go downriver on Liberty--a much less efficient route 
than using West Carson.

I have a very distinct and very sad memory of that very curve.  I was 
standing at the P&LE station inbound car stop when I happened to look toward 
the mouth of the tunnel.  There in a seemingly unending (it did) procession 
came a long line of 3700 and 3800 cars, taking the turn and heading out West 
Carson.  Didn't understand it at the time;  did not know that Ingram was the 
scrap track.  Later I learned the gravity of what I had seen.  That was in 
1952.

Dwight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 7:12 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....


>
>
> Hi Dwight
>
> I was looking for curves from Mt. Washington tunnel heading west on Carson 
> St.  There were none on the maps I looked at.  It was just to look 
> elsewhere for confirmation of what others had said - and what I already 
> suspected.  And then I had a senior moment and wondered what was the 
> original question.
>
> I remember car 1000 being backed onto a remnant of 32 P&LE at the Mon 
> Incline.  We split the crossover switch.  That would have been June 1958.
>
> John
>
>
>
>> From: dwightlong at verizon.net
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:34:53 -0500
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>> I have an imperfect understanding of your compass directions; they don't
>> square with my compass orientation!
>>
>> The relevant curves at West Carson Street and the Point Bridge were two 
>> sets
>> of double curves, the one for service cars being from the bridge to West
>> Carson and v.v., and the one for diversions being from West Carson to the
>> bridge, and v.v.
>>
>> Dwight
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
>> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 10:54 AM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > I checked some of the Pittsburgh digital history maps, and yes, the 
>> > curves
>> > are NOT there south to west at Smithfield and Carson. Very strange.
>> >
>> > Can I go back to the beginning of this discussion? What was the source
>> > for 23 operating out of Tunnel?? The route card??? And what exactly 
>> > does
>> > it say concerning car barn assignments??
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 05:17:33 -0800
>> >> From: pcc_sr at yahoo.com
>> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >>
>> >> Mr.Long,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I beg to differ. The 2-turns from Tunnel to and from W.Carson were
>> >> not added until some time after WW2 so the cars had to go into
>> >> downtown first didn't they. These tracks came very late in the game;
>> >> not long after they were added the need for the 3750s diminished
>> >> significantly because all PCCs were delivered. PCCs did not have
>> >> the left door obviously; what Prc thought about the need for this is
>> >> not known is it. Here is a photo:
>> >> http://www.davesrailpix.com/pitts/htm/bvp013.htm
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I thought the turns were added by 1947 but I have some photos in
>> >> June-1947 revealing this is not the case. The 2-turns may have been
>> >> installed as late as 1948. I have seen ridership statistics which
>> >> reveal a peak in 1947; it seems foresight of the day thought these
>> >> 2-turns would be valuable. Almost as soon as they were installed
>> >> they became obsolete didn't they. Here is the crossover where the
>> >> 32-line changed ends to and from route; this is not possible with the
>> >> 3750s is it:
>> >> http://www.davesrailpix.com/pitts/htm/bvp003.htm
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mr.Swindler has already mentioned this aspect we have overlooked.
>> >> Ingram was not a large facility; in these days many of the cars were
>> >> scrapped by burning at Ingram weren't they. Pictures are available
>> >> of many low-floor
>> >> cars, Interurbans, even 3556 at Ingram under
>> >> the torch.
>> >> Storage space for equipment might not be sufficient for
>> >> all needs until after scrapping ceased here. By that time, even PCCs
>> >> were excess to needs. I have seen some photos showing the cars
>> >> burning; these do not:
>> >> http://www.davesrailpix.com/pitts/htm/bvp126.htm
>> >>
>> >> http://www.davesrailpix.com/pitts/htm/bvp127.htm
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> W.Carson tracks remained until closure of West End didn't they.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Phil
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ________________________________
>> >> From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
>> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 4:46 PM
>> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>> >>
>> >> Phil
>> >>
>> >> See my earlier response on this issue.
>> >> Stem times from Tunnel to Rt. 23 were either favorable as opposed to
>> >> Ingram or about the same with better operating characteristics.
>> >> Until the tracks on Rt. 32 were torn up, it was NOT circuitous to
>> >> feed cars on and off Rt. 23 from Tunnel. By the time the
>> >> West Carson Street tracks were removed (after Rt. 32 ended),
>> >> Rt. 23 was already gone.
>> >>
>> >> At any rate, 3750s were not needed on Rt. 23
>> >> by the time frame under consideration.
>> >>
>> >> Dwight
>> >>
>> >> From: Phillip Clark Campbell
>> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 February, 2012 11:29
>> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>> >> My apologies, Mr.Swindler, I hit the reply too
>> >> soon.
>> >> Yes! Low-
>> >> 3750s had the door; this is already identified.
>> >> The 3750s could be used as
>> >> trippers to the Neville Island Loop
>> >> couldn't they; many other lines had short turn trippers for rush
>> >> hour service. The 13 had the 14, 42 had 43, 56 had the 56A,
>> >> 88 had the 'short.' Apparently some cars "turned" using the
>> >> cross-over where the loop was constructed for the 25-line.
>> >>
>> >> I too have often wondered about the 3750s being based at SHJ.
>> >> How did the cars get to and from route? That would be circuitous
>> >> and add much off-route trackage and even more time as it all
>> >> occurs in downtown.
>> >>
>> >> It is also interesting to note that the 2-turns from the tunnel to
>> >> W.Carson Street were added after the war, presumably for the
>> >> Neville Island route which also helped the 32-line. Ridership
>> >> reached its peak in 1947, well after the war, and a down trend
>> >> could not be identified until consecutive years show less
>> >> patronage. We have the "advantage" of hind sight don't we;
>> >> Prc did
>> >> not.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Phil
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>