[PRCo] UMW blamed for diesels

Thu May 15 10:57:12 EDT 2014

Had railroads had the money available, they could have dieselized during the
1930s and the bugs in the technology would have been exterminated that much
faster.  But who had money during the depression?  And who could have
afforded to write off the unamortized investment?

The jet engine always worked.  It was the airframe technology that failed on
the Comet I.  Jet travel was safe from 1958 (when the Comet IV and 707
entered service) but of course got safer.  But compared to piston-engine
aircraft, the turbine was much more reliable and not subject to the same
failure modes.  It was instantly safer than what it was going to replace.
Many of the early accidents involving jet transports were training trips or
were a result of crew error, not the failure of the technology itself.
Passenger prices came down primarily as a result of deregulation rather than
equipment, although evolving efficiencies in the latter are significant.  No
longer did airlines have the luxury of running planes at a 50% load factor
because the fares were high enough to permit it.  And jet fuel was dirt
cheap compared to aviation-grade gasoline.

No U.S. railroad in its right mind would have loaded up on steam power after
the war (I guess N&W was the exception here).  Diesel equipment had
acquitted itself very completely by this time, and in an era of declining
business (compared to wartime) and uncertainty, the companies were looking
to take out as much cost as possible.  Remember, the facilities and
equipment were worn out and had to be replaced anyway.  Why not buy what
offers the best opportunity for profit?

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of John
Swindler
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 10:30 AM
To: Western PA Trolley discussion
Subject: Re: [PRCo] UMW blamed for diesels

Timing is often overlooked.  Good point.

Could railroads dieselized earlier??  I doubt it.  Maybe diesel engine
technology needed improved dependability from forced WW2 requirements???
(dunno - just raising question)  

Same with jet engines.  How many crashes before jet airline travel became a
reasonable safe alternative??   And the price became more than competitive??
I was paying the same price for air fare to Europe in 1988-2004 as I paid in
1968/9.  (again, dunno - this is Ed's bailiwick) 

The railroads could have invested in new steam locos after WW2, as was the
case in much of Europe.  But fuel was cheap in US and labor was expensive.
Oil had to be imported to Europe with expensive US dollars.  For Europe,
coal was cheap, and so was labor.  It took me only a couple days during
summer of 1969 to earn more than what London Transport was paying their
conductors for the month.

Related to 'timing' is the necessary support systems for a new technology.
Consider computers, for example.  What good is the computer without the
associated software and other systems??  

> From: trams2 at comcast.net
> To: pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 09:10:00 -0400
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] UMW blamed for diesels
> 
> We also need to consider the timing...railroads could have converted 
> to diesels much earlier than they did, but would have had to write off 
> a large amount of investment to do so.  By the end of the war, though, 
> a lot of that investment was simply worn out and had to be replaced 
> anyway.  At this point the railroads were simply following the dollars 
> and buying the most transportation they could get for the buck.  Steam 
> locomotives and their attendant infrastructure were horribly 
> inefficient, and did not get replaced in kind.  John L. Lewis was a side
show.
> 
> Ed
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of 
> Fred Schneider
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 9:01 AM
> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] UMW blamed for diesels
> 
> 
> I think we have to look at everything ..
> 
> 1.   Smoke control laws.
> 
> 2.   UMW strikes making it hard to get coal.
> 
> 3.   Economics of running steam . we can lay off 4 out of every 5 workers
> and well a lot of ground we had used for shop buildings.  Might even 
> be able to sell some shop buildings to other people for factories but 
> that isn't too likely.
> 
> 4.   No need for water in the deserts of the American west.   
> 
> 5.   Locomotive availability . that diesel will run for thousands of miles
> before it needs any servicing.   Fueling can be done from a truck driven
up
> to the railroad . we don't need water columns, tanks, coal tipples.   And
> the steam engine will run about 100 miles between service stops and it 
> needs a lot of spare engines along the way because it likes to self
destruct.
> 
> An example of the self destruct concept..   When the PRR ran steam from
> Philadelphia to Harrisburg, there was a K4s stationed in Lancaster as a
> protect engine.   In the evening it sat in the station facing west because
> most trains ran west in the evening.   In the morning in faced east.
> Always with a crew on it.   John Bowman told the story of standing in the
> cab of that K4 one day talking when he was told to jump off NOW.   The
> signals had changed to clear on the pocket track.  They were going to
work.
> In January 1938, when the wires were energized to Harrisburg, the 
> protect engine was no longer needed.
> 
> The steam engine may have been pretty to the railfan . dynamic . great to
> watch.   But we have to think how many billions of dollars were saved by
> scrapping them ..... and how much cleaner the sky is over Pittsburgh, 
> Pitcairn, Glenwood, Rook, McKees Rocks and other places.
> 
> I've been sending these guys some interesting articles on Pittsburgh
> Railways.   I have ignored the smoke control stories but they are there
too.
> And there was an occasional picture of downtown on days when you couldn't
> see the top of the Gulf Building from the street.   
> 
> 
> On May 15, 2014, at 8:21 AM, John Swindler wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Easier to blame another industry/organization than to look at the
> economics of railroad operation.  Some of David Morgan's writing talk 
> about the reduction/elimination of labor costs associated with 
> conversion to diesel - despite the high initial capital costs for diesel
operation.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> >> Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 14:33:45 -0400
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org
> >> Subject: [PRCo] UMW blamed for diesels
> >> 
> >> Writer forgets that the PRR announced several days earlier that it 
> >> would
> cooperate with smoke control.   Blame cannot be totally based on either
> smoke control, economics or John L. Lewis and his boys.  
> >> 
> >> http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FisbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6kwEAAAAIBAJ
> >> &p
> >> g=3025%2C2594239
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
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