[PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
Edward H. Lybarger
trams2 at comcast.net
Thu Sep 11 08:19:08 EDT 2014
Donora closed May 16, along with the eastern half (remainder) of East & West
and North Washington. Jefferson & Maiden closed June 20. When speaking of
equipment south of Drake, I was referring, I think, to work cars that were
being used to salvage material from the line prior to its being turned over
to the scrapper for dismantling. PRC brought back numerous signals and the
like (there is some documentation, I believe). But I honestly do not
remember the conversation. There were no low-floor cars out there after
June.
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of
Holland, James B.
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 10:23 PM
To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC
Subject: Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
I MOST DEFINITELY KNOW:::::::
1711_Last REVENUE PRCo PCC Interurban Washington To Pittsburgh -- 1711_Last
REVENUE PRCo PCC Interurban to carry passengers from Washington to Pgh!
"Dr. Ed Lybarger Himself" wrote here or Said In Person To Me that there was
other equipment in Washington that needed to return to Pittsburgh AFTER 1711
made the last official run with passengers. Car Barns may have closed but a
skeleton crew is necessary because of those cars at Washington that Ed said
needed moved to Pgh AND in case there were problems on any of the last runs.
Did Donora close before Charleroi?
If not, those DE cars needed moved After the Line Closed.
********************************************************
NOTHING special needs to be fabricated. The ONLY thing that is needed is a
crossing across track with the Same Track Center and you have a Ready Made
Crossing to fit Simmons Loop. A double track in street or on prw with the
same track center as at Simmons and a turn on that which corresponds to the
turn needed for Simmons -- spares of such removed track would be available,
as was Sewickly loop available for Drake.
There would be MANY of these. YES! Pgh had a variety of track centers but
there are MANY places that have identical track centers. What is so
difficult to understand about this? Is a Drawing Necessary? I am not doing
one. I did not compare Drake Loop and Simmons -- Those are your words, Not
Mine -- Please do NOT misquote me -- ALL I said is that reclaimed track from
23 was used for the Drake loop. I said that to underscore that a reclaimed
crossing and track points were used at Simmons and then removed and replaced
with regular rail when access south was not needed any more.
********************************************************
Again, for the UMPTEENTH time -- I have seen the picture of the crossing in
the SB and Simmons loop Track AND I am 90% positive it was posted here on
the list a decade ago -- but finding it is elusive. it IS more fuzzy than
the photo in the book, maybe because of the scan.
********************************************************
YES! -- I DID think that it is possible to build the loop except for the
final turn across the tracks -- LONG before you mentioned it. But I did not
want to complicate what people could not already understand.
But Remember this::: The Last run comes through in the Very Wee hours of
the morning and Library had OWL service. The likelihood of finishing the
loop at this hour of the night ON Overtime and disturbing neighbors, not
many for sure, but still a disturbance, is unlikely. Where are the X-Overs
-- Mesta was the closest NB and there was nothing SB to my knowledge until
Lanks the beginning of single track. Portable X-Overs?
That works nicely over pavement but not on PRW -- much extra support is
needed -- they are free floating. Not impossible but another distinct
challenge and possible problems with so many regular Library revenue cars.
Cut X-Overs in at Grade? THAT is far more work than making a complete loop
AT Grade with an existing curve and track center identical and ALL parts
already available.
ALL that is necessary is is to make 4-cuts in the SB rails, 2-cuts in each
rail, remove those 2-pieces of rail, SET the 4-crossing frogs in place, and
secure. Just SET in place and equipment could pass through.
YES IT COULD. A video is available from Richard, Keegan, of Hays, KS, which
MANY here have or have seen showing "Curved-Girder-Guard-Rail" -- 7"-9"-High
-- replaced, daytime, weekday, during service, Martin Villa-IB, IN the
Street. The old rail was removed, the new rail SET in place, and the
service car operated through -- NO spikes. Crane car shuttled to Castle
Shannon and return -- THAT is also shown in the video.
I saw the same identical thing when the point into the Dormont wye-OB was
replaced -- it was simply set in place and a car allowed to pass thru into a
sharp turn. This was a 1700-city car with the crazy op with fiery-red hair.
He hit the point hard "purposely" and the car really heaved but the point
stayed in place. I Was young but knew that was dead wrong; he had a bad
altitude (and he seemed to disappear within a year or two.)
Regardless of you thinking that the Interurbans would use the 42/38 it IS
True, as you did discover, that they used the 38-line. I TOLD THE TRUTH. I
lived there and experienced it. It is VERY strange to me that ALL others on
this lisP can write by memory and everybody fauns over it, yet my memory is
NOT allowed in spite of a history here providing very good information, at
first denied by ALL, but later confirmed. That has Most Definitely Happened
Not A Few Times.
Again, I TELL THE TRUTH for the UMPTEENTH time -- I have seen the picture of
the crossing in the SB and Simmons loop Track AND I am positive it was
posted here on the list a decade ago -- but finding it is elusive. It IS
more fuzzy than the photo in the book, maybe because of the scan.
Construction of the loop as I detail is highly logical -- in all honesty,
THE MOST logical and NOT Expensive using reclaimed rail and special work as
IS the custom.
It is uncertain as to whether I shall visit Friday or not. My original
plans were to attend the West Penn MODEL meet at PTM on those days and to
see someone in another dept for whom I have some items to donate. I would
stop to see Ed in the archives as is my custom when visiting on weekdays.
What changed my mind was the "possibility" of taking New Operator Training
the last weekend of September, thus the cancellation of this weekend.
In all honesty, all this @!^%$# has killed my enthusiasm. And after working
35+years as an Operator on San Francisco Muniserable Railways (During which
80% of ALL surface tracks were rebuilt while I was working on PCCs in the
1970s--so I am Highly Informed on Track work) and dealing with all the
@!^%$# there, it shall be little different operating at PTM. The
Dispatching on a couple nights during Washington County Fair this year was
abysmal. When the dispatcher received a "Question" on the radio, his
response was::: "Ten-Four." He would make a Grrrrrrreat Muni candidate.
--
*Jim*
SF_MUNI_RECLAIMED_SPECIALWORK_INSTALLATION -- -- without evening jogging
memory I can think of 2-specific locations that used reclaimed rail,
crossings, and turnouts when single-end equipment became the norm --
30th//Judah wye and 35th//Taraval wye. On the wye leg on both 30th and
35th, a 3-way special-work point and mate were used with right and left
turns as well as tangent straight through -- this is what was available,
this is what was used even though a straight thru tangent was not needed. I
bet you shall even deny that. Out-of-towners always assume a line went
straight thru, but never did.
> [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
>
> *Edward H. Lybarger* trams2 at comcast.net
> <mailto:pittsburgh-railways%40mailman.dementix.org?Subject=Re:%20%5BPR
> Co%5D%20Simmons%20Loop%2C%20June-July-1953&In-Reply-To=%3C001b01cfcd48
> %2476fe2420%2464fa6c60%24%40comcast.net%3E>
> /Wed Sep 10 18:42:13 EDT 2014/
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- Both interurban car houses were closed at the end of June 20's
> schedule. I always imagined that the loop cut-in was done exactly as
> Dwight suggests.
> To do otherwise would have been costly and cumbersome; PRC didn't like
> those kinds of things when avoidable. Having the northbound track
> complete, only now with a switch point so cars could come out of the
> new loop, enabled the return of anything south of Library. And a
> couple crossovers would have easily enabled southbound movements when
needed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org
> <https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways>
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org
> <https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways>]
> On Behalf Of Dwight Long
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:26 PM
> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
>
>
> Charleroi car house was closed a few weeks (don't have the exact date
> here) before the line was abandoned south of Simmons. All service was
> then operated out of the Interurban barn at Tunnel. As to the 3800
> which languished there for a long time, I have seen that car. It is
> my understanding that it was towed to Ingram some time in 1952, early
> 1952, for scrapping. It was not there in late 1952 when WP 832 was
> moved to Charleroi and stored there until May 1953. I don't know when
> the other equipment was moved, but no doubt prior to or right after the
barn closed.
>
> There is another possibility that neither one of us has mentioned
> heretofore and that is that the Simmons loop was already constructed
> WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE PIECE WHERE THE SOUTHBOUND MAIN WAS, and
> possibly where the loop track intersected the northbound main. These
> pieces could have been fabricated and on site, so that after service
> on Rt. C ceased, all that would have had to be done was to remove rail
> at one or two locations (either with the gas wrench or by unbolting
> rail sections) and insert and bolt or weld in the missing pieces.
> This could have been done, with a large enough crew, very quickly and
> would have been the least expensive way to accomplish inauguration of
Simmons loop.
>
> Unless, and I doubt this was true, the loop were made with a PERFECT
> 90 DEGREE INTERSECTION of the loop track with the southbound main, a
> SPECIALLY-CONSTRUCTED set of frogs would have had to be fabricated
> according to the respective angles. That would have been expensive.
> Drake loop was, as you say, a reuse of the Sewickley loop, but Drake
> was all new work which could be done without the impact of traffic, as
> the Walthers wye sufficed til it was done. Not at all comparable to the
situation at Simmons.
>
> Tylerdale CH was also closed before the end of service on the W line,
> so I don't know what car would have been the last one out of there.
> No doubt, however, it would have been before the end of revenue
> service, not before that. The last passenger cars on Rt. W south of
> Ruthfred were in March 1954 but none of them went as far south as
> Tylerdale CH. WP 832 went the furthest south but it turned at a point
> short of Tylerdale. The W line was scrapped (OHL and track) using
> rubber-tired vehicles--I have fots of this--and I ASSUME C line was done
in same way.
>
> Sorry I will not see you on Friday, but I will try to find what I can
> in the archives and will report accordingly.
>
> Dwight
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Holland, James B.
> To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:50 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
>
>
> >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Holland, James B. <PRCoPCC at
> >> p-r-co.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> ....... About a decade ago a photo was posted here showing the
> >> crossing -- the photographer was south looking north. I believe
Mark
> >> in Florida posted the photo. I have searched the lisp photo files:
> >>http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/
> >> ...using: "Char; prw; loop; track; sim" each of them separately to
> >> see if I could find the photo which I could not. Maybe others shall
> >> be more successful.
> >
> >
> > On Mon Sep 8 06:57:37 EDT 2014, D Brashear shadow at dementix.org
wrote
> >
> > Jim, right idea but no picture. Mark [McGuire] said:
> >
> > "There is a shot on page 127 (bottom) in Leroy King's Vol. IV of
a
> > 1700 car at Simmons taken from the abandoned Charleroi trackage
> > looking north. Now I just need to find something similar but
> > looking south into the abandoned trackage. I have an old Bill
> > Gwinn contact print of 4398 on a fantrip looking south but it is
> > very blurry."
> >
>
> Ahhhhhhh -- list server Just Back Up and Online And Hopefully running
> .......
>
> Thank You Mark and Daria! -- The book-photo IS fuzzy but NB Charleroi
> tangent/'straight' rails clearly indicate guard rails whether or not
the
> point/mate are still in place. Guard rails would not be on a tangent
at
> this location without special work. The picture I am looking for
> clearly shows the crossing frogs in the loop/SB track to Charleroi, a
> prw photo similar view of book. Such a crossing is "Not New
> Fabrication" but reclaimed from elsewhere on PRCo (Sewickley loop
became
> Drake loop--Undt Udders!)++ Here is another pic of elusive 1701 at
> Simmons (possibly from Mark) looking the other direction. But like
> others, it does not tell us anything:
> 1701_Simmons.jpg -- URL below
>
> ++ "....... Railways generally had old hardware on hand (removed
> from other locations but still usable) for such purposes. Removal
of
> crossing (along with trail point//mate) allow installation of
larger
> curved section on new loop without excess joints."
>
> http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-Septemb
> er/033
> 337.html
>
>
> We can take a lesson from the "wording" about Washington Closure which
is in Noah's ArkIves for the list: "PRCo PCC Interurban 1711 was the last
REVENUE run from Washington to Pgh." It was NOT the last car out of
Tylerdale.
>
> Back to Charleroi: While service was terminated, much is needed to
bring "Real Closure" to the line which includes moving both Spare Revenue
cars (PCCs, DE-Low-Floor cars, possibly one 3800-series car which remained
at least beyond end of service for said vehicles If Not to the very end of
Charleroi) and "M" equipment to other locations on PRCo property as well as
removal of overhead for scrap value then dismantling the tracks. There is
much more to closing out operations with real estate (barn) etc. Thus the
turnout in the NB track to allow equipment from Charleroi to move to Pgh and
work equipment to do what it has to do down there.
>
> NO! The rwy would not move spares ahead of closure. Operation
> continues as usual until after closure; one can not predict if car
> changes shall not be necessary on final runs. (As for Washington, the
> city lines ended some weeks ahead of the interurban so those cars
> could be moved out once they are not needed.)
>
> The 4398 would be almost 2+years after Char closure, too late for our
needs.
> The following photos are URLs at the bottom of the email from the
following charter:
> 1955.06.12 4398 PRCo Monongahela Incline, 57, 32, 36, 35, 38A, 38, 42,
40, 48, 49, 22, 4, 5, 21, 8, 10, 15, 13, 6, 18.
> 4398SimmonsLoop-01_19550612.jpg -- already posted as BIN
>
> 4398SimmonsLoop-02_19550612.jpg -- already posted as BIN
>
> 4398_36-Loop_19550612_1600.jpg
>
> This email in 'draft' when Daria posted to change BIN to JPG. You did
post these photos to list 2003-10-28 -- or that is date I downloaded it.
So now you have double copies of the photos; sell the extra one on ebay!
>
> --
> *Jim*
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