[PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
Dwight Long
dwightlong at verizon.net
Thu Sep 11 00:26:37 EDT 2014
>From the beginning I have allowed that what you postulate COULD have happened. Indeed it might have. But it is NOT what was reported in contemporary accounts and it is NOT the most logical way for PRC to have brought Simmons on line. As I stated before, if you can show proof that in spite of that, it WAS in fact what was done, I will be the first to salute you. In the meantime, I will stick with logic and the reports from the era.
This is just an exercise to determine some very arcane, and in all fairness, rather peripheral, facts. I cannot see the need for you, or anyone else, to get so worked up over it. I have no intention of obsessing over it, but I will see what can be found without unduly detracting from other more important work, on both this subject and the post-1951 Rt. 37 schedules, in the archives on Friday, and will report in due course.
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: Holland, James B.
To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
I MOST DEFINITELY KNOW:::::::
1711_Last REVENUE PRCo PCC Interurban Washington To Pittsburgh --
1711_Last REVENUE PRCo PCC Interurban to carry passengers from
Washington to Pgh!
"Dr. Ed Lybarger Himself" wrote here or Said In Person To Me that there
was other equipment in Washington that needed to return to Pittsburgh
AFTER 1711 made the last official run with passengers. Car Barns may
have closed but a skeleton crew is necessary because of those cars at
Washington that Ed said needed moved to Pgh AND in case there were
problems on any of the last runs. Did Donora close before Charleroi?
If not, those DE cars needed moved After the Line Closed.
********************************************************
NOTHING special needs to be fabricated. The ONLY thing that is needed
is a crossing across track with the Same Track Center and you have a
Ready Made Crossing to fit Simmons Loop. A double track in street or on
prw with the same track center as at Simmons and a turn on that which
corresponds to the turn needed for Simmons -- spares of such removed
track would be available, as was Sewickly loop available for Drake.
There would be MANY of these. YES! Pgh had a variety of track centers
but there are MANY places that have identical track centers. What is so
difficult to understand about this? Is a Drawing Necessary? I am not
doing one. I did not compare Drake Loop and Simmons -- Those are your
words, Not Mine -- Please do NOT misquote me -- ALL I said is that
reclaimed track from 23 was used for the Drake loop. I said that to
underscore that a reclaimed crossing and track points were used at
Simmons and then removed and replaced with regular rail when access
south was not needed any more.
********************************************************
Again, for the UMPTEENTH time -- I have seen the picture of the crossing
in the SB and Simmons loop Track AND I am 90% positive it was posted
here on the list a decade ago -- but finding it is elusive. it IS more
fuzzy than the photo in the book, maybe because of the scan.
********************************************************
YES! -- I DID think that it is possible to build the loop except for
the final turn across the tracks -- LONG before you mentioned it. But I
did not want to complicate what people could not already understand.
But Remember this::: The Last run comes through in the Very Wee hours
of the morning and Library had OWL service. The likelihood of finishing
the loop at this hour of the night ON Overtime and disturbing neighbors,
not many for sure, but still a disturbance, is unlikely. Where are the
X-Overs -- Mesta was the closest NB and there was nothing SB to my
knowledge until Lanks the beginning of single track. Portable X-Overs?
That works nicely over pavement but not on PRW -- much extra support is
needed -- they are free floating. Not impossible but another distinct
challenge and possible problems with so many regular Library revenue
cars. Cut X-Overs in at Grade? THAT is far more work than making a
complete loop AT Grade with an existing curve and track center identical
and ALL parts already available.
ALL that is necessary is is to make 4-cuts in the SB rails, 2-cuts in
each rail, remove those 2-pieces of rail, SET the 4-crossing frogs in
place, and secure. Just SET in place and equipment could pass through.
YES IT COULD. A video is available from Richard, Keegan, of Hays, KS,
which MANY here have or have seen showing "Curved-Girder-Guard-Rail" --
7"-9"-High -- replaced, daytime, weekday, during service, Martin
Villa-IB, IN the Street. The old rail was removed, the new rail SET in
place, and the service car operated through -- NO spikes. Crane car
shuttled to Castle Shannon and return -- THAT is also shown in the video.
I saw the same identical thing when the point into the Dormont wye-OB
was replaced -- it was simply set in place and a car allowed to pass
thru into a sharp turn. This was a 1700-city car with the crazy op with
fiery-red hair. He hit the point hard "purposely" and the car really
heaved but the point stayed in place. I Was young but knew that was
dead wrong; he had a bad altitude (and he seemed to disappear within a
year or two.)
Regardless of you thinking that the Interurbans would use the 42/38 it
IS True, as you did discover, that they used the 38-line. I TOLD THE
TRUTH. I lived there and experienced it. It is VERY strange to me that
ALL others on this lisP can write by memory and everybody fauns over it,
yet my memory is NOT allowed in spite of a history here providing very
good information, at first denied by ALL, but later confirmed. That has
Most Definitely Happened Not A Few Times.
Again, I TELL THE TRUTH for the UMPTEENTH time -- I have seen the
picture of the crossing in the SB and Simmons loop Track AND I am
positive it was posted here on the list a decade ago -- but finding it
is elusive. It IS more fuzzy than the photo in the book, maybe because
of the scan. Construction of the loop as I detail is highly logical --
in all honesty, THE MOST logical and NOT Expensive using reclaimed rail
and special work as IS the custom.
It is uncertain as to whether I shall visit Friday or not. My original
plans were to attend the West Penn MODEL meet at PTM on those days and
to see someone in another dept for whom I have some items to donate. I
would stop to see Ed in the archives as is my custom when visiting on
weekdays.
What changed my mind was the "possibility" of taking New Operator
Training the last weekend of September, thus the cancellation of this
weekend.
In all honesty, all this @!^%$# has killed my enthusiasm. And after
working 35+years as an Operator on San Francisco Muniserable Railways
(During which 80% of ALL surface tracks were rebuilt while I was working
on PCCs in the 1970s--so I am Highly Informed on Track work) and dealing
with all the @!^%$# there, it shall be little different operating at
PTM. The Dispatching on a couple nights during Washington County Fair
this year was abysmal. When the dispatcher received a "Question" on the
radio, his response was::: "Ten-Four." He would make a Grrrrrrreat Muni
candidate.
--
*Jim*
SF_MUNI_RECLAIMED_SPECIALWORK_INSTALLATION -- -- without evening jogging
memory I can think of 2-specific locations that used reclaimed rail,
crossings, and turnouts when single-end equipment became the norm --
30th//Judah wye and 35th//Taraval wye. On the wye leg on both 30th and
35th, a 3-way special-work point and mate were used with right and left
turns as well as tangent straight through -- this is what was available,
this is what was used even though a straight thru tangent was not
needed. I bet you shall even deny that. Out-of-towners always assume a
line went straight thru, but never did.
> [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
>
> *Edward H. Lybarger* trams2 at comcast.net
> <mailto:pittsburgh-railways%40mailman.dementix.org?Subject=Re:%20%5BPRCo%5D%20Simmons%20Loop%2C%20June-July-1953&In-Reply-To=%3C001b01cfcd48%2476fe2420%2464fa6c60%24%40comcast.net%3E>
> /Wed Sep 10 18:42:13 EDT 2014/
>
> * Previous message: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
> <http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/033363.html>
> * Next message: [PRCo] 38-Mt.Lebanon
> <http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/033358.html>
> * *Messages sorted by:* [ date ]
> <http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/date.html#33365>
> [ thread ]
> <http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/thread.html#33365>
> [ subject ]
> <http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/subject.html#33365>
> [ author ]
> <http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/author.html#33365>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Both interurban car houses were closed at the end of June 20's schedule. I
> always imagined that the loop cut-in was done exactly as Dwight suggests.
> To do otherwise would have been costly and cumbersome; PRC didn't like those
> kinds of things when avoidable. Having the northbound track complete, only
> now with a switch point so cars could come out of the new loop, enabled the
> return of anything south of Library. And a couple crossovers would have
> easily enabled southbound movements when needed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org <https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways>
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org <https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways>] On Behalf Of
> Dwight Long
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:26 PM
> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
>
>
> Charleroi car house was closed a few weeks (don't have the exact date here)
> before the line was abandoned south of Simmons. All service was then
> operated out of the Interurban barn at Tunnel. As to the 3800 which
> languished there for a long time, I have seen that car. It is my
> understanding that it was towed to Ingram some time in 1952, early 1952, for
> scrapping. It was not there in late 1952 when WP 832 was moved to Charleroi
> and stored there until May 1953. I don't know when the other equipment was
> moved, but no doubt prior to or right after the barn closed.
>
> There is another possibility that neither one of us has mentioned heretofore
> and that is that the Simmons loop was already constructed WITH THE EXCEPTION
> OF THE PIECE WHERE THE SOUTHBOUND MAIN WAS, and possibly where the loop
> track intersected the northbound main. These pieces could have been
> fabricated and on site, so that after service on Rt. C ceased, all that
> would have had to be done was to remove rail at one or two locations (either
> with the gas wrench or by unbolting rail sections) and insert and bolt or
> weld in the missing pieces. This could have been done, with a large enough
> crew, very quickly and would have been the least expensive way to accomplish
> inauguration of Simmons loop.
>
> Unless, and I doubt this was true, the loop were made with a PERFECT 90
> DEGREE INTERSECTION of the loop track with the southbound main, a
> SPECIALLY-CONSTRUCTED set of frogs would have had to be fabricated according
> to the respective angles. That would have been expensive. Drake loop was,
> as you say, a reuse of the Sewickley loop, but Drake was all new work which
> could be done without the impact of traffic, as the Walthers wye sufficed
> til it was done. Not at all comparable to the situation at Simmons.
>
> Tylerdale CH was also closed before the end of service on the W line, so I
> don't know what car would have been the last one out of there. No doubt,
> however, it would have been before the end of revenue service, not before
> that. The last passenger cars on Rt. W south of Ruthfred were in March 1954
> but none of them went as far south as Tylerdale CH. WP 832 went the
> furthest south but it turned at a point short of Tylerdale. The W line was
> scrapped (OHL and track) using rubber-tired vehicles--I have fots of
> this--and I ASSUME C line was done in same way.
>
> Sorry I will not see you on Friday, but I will try to find what I can in the
> archives and will report accordingly.
>
> Dwight
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Holland, James B.
> To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:50 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
>
>
> >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Holland, James B. <PRCoPCC at
> >> p-r-co.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> ....... About a decade ago a photo was posted here showing the
> >> crossing -- the photographer was south looking north. I believe Mark
> >> in Florida posted the photo. I have searched the lisp photo files:
> >>http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/
> >> ...using: "Char; prw; loop; track; sim" each of them separately to
> >> see if I could find the photo which I could not. Maybe others shall
> >> be more successful.
> >
> >
> > On Mon Sep 8 06:57:37 EDT 2014, D Brashear shadow at dementix.org wrote
> >
> > Jim, right idea but no picture. Mark [McGuire] said:
> >
> > "There is a shot on page 127 (bottom) in Leroy King's Vol. IV of a
> > 1700 car at Simmons taken from the abandoned Charleroi trackage
> > looking north. Now I just need to find something similar but
> > looking south into the abandoned trackage. I have an old Bill
> > Gwinn contact print of 4398 on a fantrip looking south but it is
> > very blurry."
> >
>
> Ahhhhhhh -- list server Just Back Up and Online And Hopefully running
> .......
>
> Thank You Mark and Daria! -- The book-photo IS fuzzy but NB Charleroi
> tangent/'straight' rails clearly indicate guard rails whether or not the
> point/mate are still in place. Guard rails would not be on a tangent at
> this location without special work. The picture I am looking for
> clearly shows the crossing frogs in the loop/SB track to Charleroi, a
> prw photo similar view of book. Such a crossing is "Not New
> Fabrication" but reclaimed from elsewhere on PRCo (Sewickley loop became
> Drake loop--Undt Udders!)++ Here is another pic of elusive 1701 at
> Simmons (possibly from Mark) looking the other direction. But like
> others, it does not tell us anything:
> 1701_Simmons.jpg -- URL below
>
> ++ "....... Railways generally had old hardware on hand (removed
> from other locations but still usable) for such purposes. Removal of
> crossing (along with trail point//mate) allow installation of larger
> curved section on new loop without excess joints."
>
> http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/033
> 337.html
>
>
> We can take a lesson from the "wording" about Washington Closure which is in Noah's ArkIves for the list: "PRCo PCC Interurban 1711 was the last REVENUE run from Washington to Pgh." It was NOT the last car out of Tylerdale.
>
> Back to Charleroi: While service was terminated, much is needed to bring "Real Closure" to the line which includes moving both Spare Revenue cars (PCCs, DE-Low-Floor cars, possibly one 3800-series car which remained at least beyond end of service for said vehicles If Not to the very end of Charleroi) and "M" equipment to other locations on PRCo property as well as removal of overhead for scrap value then dismantling the tracks. There is much more to closing out operations with real estate (barn) etc. Thus the turnout in the NB track to allow equipment from Charleroi to move to Pgh and work equipment to do what it has to do down there.
>
> NO! The rwy would not move spares ahead of closure. Operation continues as usual until after closure; one can not predict if car changes shall not be necessary on final runs. (As for Washington, the city lines ended some weeks ahead of the interurban so those cars could be moved out once they are not needed.)
>
> The 4398 would be almost 2+years after Char closure, too late for our needs.
> The following photos are URLs at the bottom of the email from the following charter:
> 1955.06.12 4398 PRCo Monongahela Incline, 57, 32, 36, 35, 38A, 38, 42, 40, 48, 49, 22, 4, 5, 21, 8, 10, 15, 13, 6, 18.
> 4398SimmonsLoop-01_19550612.jpg -- already posted as BIN
>
> 4398SimmonsLoop-02_19550612.jpg -- already posted as BIN
>
> 4398_36-Loop_19550612_1600.jpg
>
> This email in 'draft' when Daria posted to change BIN to JPG. You did post these photos to list 2003-10-28 -- or that is date I downloaded it. So now you have double copies of the photos; sell the extra one on ebay!
>
> --
> *Jim*
_______________________________________________
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20140911/36cdd4eb/attachment.html
More information about the Pittsburgh-railways
mailing list