[PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
Dwight Long
dwightlong at verizon.net
Mon Sep 15 20:05:10 EDT 2014
As stated in previous emails, I spent the day last Friday in the archives at Arden. While my primary mission was to help rearrange and sort things there, with Ed's help I was able to research the Simmons loop issue about which there have been conflicting theories expressed on this list recently.
There is a complete, original PRC file on the construction of this loop at Arden. It contains two drawings, a large, annotated engineering drawing and a smaller (but still larger than standard paper) one showing record of track changes and also the loop schematic. The folder is Construction Order 646. In addition to the drawings, it contains a wealth of other data, including bill of materials, costs, dates, and the like. From this evidence it is incontrovertible that the loop was built WITHOUT any crossing frogs in the southbound main line at Simmons. There WAS a trailing point switch in the northbound main line, as Ed stated, as well as the switch in the southbound main serving the loop and the center cripple track (a portion of the old southbound main). NOWHERE is there any reference to additional frogs or other specialwork that would be needed to install a crossing of the southbound main, and none is shown on the engineering drawings.
Some other factoids about Simmons loop:
--The curved rail special work was done at Millvale CH
--The shelter there was recycled from its previous location at Black Diamond
--The first car to use the new loop was 1721, operating as train 27 with operator 6010, at 0848 on 29 June 1953.
--From the time of the last car on Rt. C until the above, Rt. 35 cars turned at West Library Loop and backed to Simmons.
There were apparently some works car moves south of Simmons to remove signals and possibly other valuable line materials after 28 June, as Ed said that there are records in the Museum showing that some signals now there were originally on the Charleroi line. These may have been removed by PRC crews using M-212 as was done on the Washington line. In that case the northbound main line south of Simmons would have been used in both directions for the relatively few trips involved.
I trust that this research, which validates contemporary accounts, disposes of this matter to everyone's satisfaction.
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward H. Lybarger
To: 'Western PA Trolley discussion'
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
Both interurban car houses were closed at the end of June 20's schedule. I
always imagined that the loop cut-in was done exactly as Dwight suggests.
To do otherwise would have been costly and cumbersome; PRC didn't like those
kinds of things when avoidable. Having the northbound track complete, only
now with a switch point so cars could come out of the new loop, enabled the
return of anything south of Library. And a couple crossovers would have
easily enabled southbound movements when needed.
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of
Dwight Long
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:26 PM
To: Western PA Trolley discussion
Subject: Re: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
Charleroi car house was closed a few weeks (don't have the exact date here)
before the line was abandoned south of Simmons. All service was then
operated out of the Interurban barn at Tunnel. As to the 3800 which
languished there for a long time, I have seen that car. It is my
understanding that it was towed to Ingram some time in 1952, early 1952, for
scrapping. It was not there in late 1952 when WP 832 was moved to Charleroi
and stored there until May 1953. I don't know when the other equipment was
moved, but no doubt prior to or right after the barn closed.
There is another possibility that neither one of us has mentioned heretofore
and that is that the Simmons loop was already constructed WITH THE EXCEPTION
OF THE PIECE WHERE THE SOUTHBOUND MAIN WAS, and possibly where the loop
track intersected the northbound main. These pieces could have been
fabricated and on site, so that after service on Rt. C ceased, all that
would have had to be done was to remove rail at one or two locations (either
with the gas wrench or by unbolting rail sections) and insert and bolt or
weld in the missing pieces. This could have been done, with a large enough
crew, very quickly and would have been the least expensive way to accomplish
inauguration of Simmons loop.
Unless, and I doubt this was true, the loop were made with a PERFECT 90
DEGREE INTERSECTION of the loop track with the southbound main, a
SPECIALLY-CONSTRUCTED set of frogs would have had to be fabricated according
to the respective angles. That would have been expensive. Drake loop was,
as you say, a reuse of the Sewickley loop, but Drake was all new work which
could be done without the impact of traffic, as the Walthers wye sufficed
til it was done. Not at all comparable to the situation at Simmons.
Tylerdale CH was also closed before the end of service on the W line, so I
don't know what car would have been the last one out of there. No doubt,
however, it would have been before the end of revenue service, not before
that. The last passenger cars on Rt. W south of Ruthfred were in March 1954
but none of them went as far south as Tylerdale CH. WP 832 went the
furthest south but it turned at a point short of Tylerdale. The W line was
scrapped (OHL and track) using rubber-tired vehicles--I have fots of
this--and I ASSUME C line was done in same way.
Sorry I will not see you on Friday, but I will try to find what I can in the
archives and will report accordingly.
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: Holland, James B.
To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:50 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953
>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Holland, James B. <PRCoPCC at
>> p-r-co.com> wrote:
>>
>> ....... About a decade ago a photo was posted here showing the
>> crossing -- the photographer was south looking north. I believe Mark
>> in Florida posted the photo. I have searched the lisp photo files:
>> http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/
>> ...using: "Char; prw; loop; track; sim" each of them separately to
>> see if I could find the photo which I could not. Maybe others shall
>> be more successful.
>
>
> On Mon Sep 8 06:57:37 EDT 2014, D Brashear shadow at dementix.org wrote
>
> Jim, right idea but no picture. Mark [McGuire] said:
>
> "There is a shot on page 127 (bottom) in Leroy King's Vol. IV of a
> 1700 car at Simmons taken from the abandoned Charleroi trackage
> looking north. Now I just need to find something similar but
> looking south into the abandoned trackage. I have an old Bill
> Gwinn contact print of 4398 on a fantrip looking south but it is
> very blurry."
>
Ahhhhhhh -- list server Just Back Up and Online And Hopefully running
.......
Thank You Mark and Daria! -- The book-photo IS fuzzy but NB Charleroi
tangent/'straight' rails clearly indicate guard rails whether or not the
point/mate are still in place. Guard rails would not be on a tangent at
this location without special work. The picture I am looking for
clearly shows the crossing frogs in the loop/SB track to Charleroi, a
prw photo similar view of book. Such a crossing is "Not New
Fabrication" but reclaimed from elsewhere on PRCo (Sewickley loop became
Drake loop--Undt Udders!)++ Here is another pic of elusive 1701 at
Simmons (possibly from Mark) looking the other direction. But like
others, it does not tell us anything:
1701_Simmons.jpg -- URL below
++ "....... Railways generally had old hardware on hand (removed
from other locations but still usable) for such purposes. Removal of
crossing (along with trail point//mate) allow installation of larger
curved section on new loop without excess joints."
http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/033
337.html
We can take a lesson from the "wording" about Washington Closure which
is in Noah's ArkIves for the list: "PRCo PCC Interurban 1711 was the
last REVENUE run from Washington to Pgh." It was NOT the last car out
of Tylerdale.
Back to Charleroi: While service was terminated, much is needed to
bring "Real Closure" to the line which includes moving both Spare
Revenue cars (PCCs, DE-Low-Floor cars, possibly one 3800-series car
which remained at least beyond end of service for said vehicles If Not
to the very end of Charleroi) and "M" equipment to other locations on
PRCo property as well as removal of overhead for scrap value then
dismantling the tracks. There is much more to closing out operations
with real estate (barn) etc. Thus the turnout in the NB track to allow
equipment from Charleroi to move to Pgh and work equipment to do what it
has to do down there.
NO! The rwy would not move spares ahead of closure. Operation
continues as usual until after closure; one can not predict if car
changes shall not be necessary on final runs. (As for Washington, the
city lines ended some weeks ahead of the interurban so those cars could
be moved out once they are not needed.)
The 4398 would be almost 2+years after Char closure, too late for our
needs.
The following photos are URLs at the bottom of the email from the
following charter:
1955.06.12 4398 PRCo Monongahela Incline, 57, 32, 36, 35, 38A,
38, 42, 40, 48, 49, 22, 4, 5, 21, 8, 10, 15, 13, 6, 18.
4398SimmonsLoop-01_19550612.jpg -- already posted as BIN
4398SimmonsLoop-02_19550612.jpg -- already posted as BIN
4398_36-Loop_19550612_1600.jpg
This email in 'draft' when Daria posted to change BIN to JPG. You did
post these photos to list 2003-10-28 -- or that is date I downloaded
it. So now you have double copies of the photos; sell the extra one on
ebay!
--
*Jim*
PS-------I had intended being at PTM Archives on Friday and Sat morn as
well (12-13-Sept), but plans have changed and that shall be rescheduled
later in the month. I have rather active "schedule//timetable" into
early Oct.
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