[PRCo] Re: Allegheny County's new Transit Development Plan

John Bromley johnfbromley at rogers.com
Sun Aug 30 11:48:27 EDT 2009 

Now that's one helluva typo!


> From: Derrick Brashear <shadow at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: Pittsburgh Railways Group <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:44:22 -0400
> To: Pittsburgh Railways Group <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Cc: Pittsburgh Railways Group <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Allegheny County's new Transit Development Plan
> 
> stripped and converted to this incorrect URL:
> http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/ecartOnx9cI
> 
> I'll fix later (about to have lunch)
> 
> Derrick
> 
> 
> On Aug 30, 2009, at 11:10, John Bromley <johnfbromley at rogers.com> wrote:
> 
>> What happened to the small attachment?  Maybe Derrick knows.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> From: John Bromley <johnfbromley at rogers.com>
>>> Reply-To: Pittsburgh Railways Group <pittsburgh-
>>> railways at dementia.org>
>>> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:59:17 -0400
>>> To: Pittsburgh Railways Group <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Allegheny County's new Transit Development Plan
>>> 
>>> This has already been revealed - TWICE.  I even said I have several
>>> photos
>>> (which include, by the way, a non-fantrip shot of 1652 doing
>>> exactly this).
>>> I've attached it.
>>> Doesn't anyone read what is said?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>> Reply-To: Pittsburgh Railways Group <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>> 
>>>> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:42:34 -0400
>>>> To: Pittsburgh Railways Group <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Allegheny County's new Transit Development Plan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> And I was told that one morning, in lieu of CAR HOUSE, one motorman
>>>> actually was seen returning to base at the end of the morning rush
>>>> hour with GOTHAM CITY VIA BAT CAVE rolled up.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 12:54 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I've seen a photo of one reading, "Toonerville."
>>>>> 
>>>>> K.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 8:40 PM
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Allegheny County's new Transit Development Plan
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> One I heard about but never photographed:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2 Grandma's House via The Woods.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But one I did see and liked was:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 86 Wilkinsburg via Subway  EXPRESS
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> with express in green background.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: j_swindler at hotmail.com
>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Allegheny County's new Transit Development
>>>>>>> Plan
>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 23:24:40 -0400
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Pre-season games are to 'tune-up' the first string players, and
>>>>>>> hopefully
>>>>>>> not suffer any injuries, but most of these games involves
>>>>>>> evaluating
>>>>>>> rookies and free agents. The first string for both teams called
>>>>>>> it a
>>>>>>> night after about the first quarter last weekend. They might play
>>>>>>> half
>>>>>>> the game Saturday night, then the first string will just make a
>>>>>>> cameo
>>>>>>> appearance for the final pre-season game. The real games start in
>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>> weeks.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> PAT went from around 115 million annual riders mid-1970s to
>>>>>>> around 66
>>>>>>> million last year. Rail ridership has hovered around 25,000 per
>>>>>>> day
>>>>>>> during that time frame. The system loss has not occurred on
>>>>>>> Overbrook nor
>>>>>>> Beechview.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Allegheny County's new Transit Development
>>>>>>>> Plan
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:59:24 -0400
>>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle. Love it Derrick.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Having worked all my life as an number cruncher / analyst .... I
>>>>>>>> guess I feel I never wasted too much time looking at numbers
>>>>>>>> if I
>>>>>>>> eventually was able to pull out the right answer. Sometimes the
>>>>>>>> results are misleading but we try.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> By the way ... passenger counts ... the one thing I could have
>>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>> and I did not is that we are now pretty much cognizant that mass
>>>>>>>> transit riders do prefer rail over bus ... we can now show that
>>>>>>>> riding went down when we converted lines from rail to bus and
>>>>>>>> came
>>>>>>>> back up again in the same corridors when we went back to rail.
>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>> the case of Charlotte, NC, building a light rail line cause such
>>>>>>>> impressive riding that the entire system ridership doubled in
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> year. But I think it is also very safe to say that, regardless
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> how much the public may like these new systems, riding levels
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> never be at the point where they can support a privately owned
>>>>>>>> system. And government has to answer to the tax payers and the
>>>>>>>> voters. The TWU and the NAACP and other civil rights coalitions
>>>>>>>> represent large blocka of voters so when you take over PAT or
>>>>>>>> SEPTA,
>>>>>>>> it is easier to run empty buses over the same old routes for 40
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>> as long as you can shift the burden of payment to the state and
>>>>>>>> federal governments. And the local boys tried for years to shift
>>>>>>>> that expense until FTA screamed that they wanted fares to at
>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>> cover one-third of operating costs and then the locals simply
>>>>>>>> tried
>>>>>>>> to redefine operating costs. Right John?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The renumbering of routes in Allegheny County reflects, in my
>>>>>>>> not so
>>>>>>>> silent or humble opinion, a reflection that PAT has finally
>>>>>>>> come to
>>>>>>>> grips with the fact that they can no longer shift to the state
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> federal government the burden of financing of a bloated transit
>>>>>>>> system that needs to be reduced to a smaller number of lines.
>>>>>>>> About
>>>>>>>> time, guys.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Beyond reducing it's size, I don't expect to see any substantive
>>>>>>>> change until we recognize that oil resources are finite.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And who is Fred Mergner and if he is a railfan, why don't we
>>>>>>>> have him
>>>>>>>> in the museum and in this group of loony fellows?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Urban interstates? Whole different issue than rural interstates.
>>>>>>>> I truly love the scheme of mileage based exit numbers for rural
>>>>>>>> interstates but it does fall apart in places when you are on
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>> like the Roosevelt Highway in Manhattan or the Cross Bronx
>>>>>>>> Expressway
>>>>>>>> or the exits coming off either end of the San Francisco -
>>>>>>>> Oakland Bay
>>>>>>>> Bridge. Jones Falls in Baltimore is another. And Bob Rathke
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> cite the expressways in Chicago.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But for rural interstates, my personal conviction is that
>>>>>>>> mileage
>>>>>>>> based exit numbers is the best scheme the cat dragged home. It's
>>>>>>>> great to get on at 232 and know I can make it to 495 in about
>>>>>>>> four
>>>>>>>> hours with a heavy foot.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And to Matt Barry: The fact that I responded to this in the
>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>> place is my way of saying thanks for the post. I enjoyed it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And what happened in the last half of the pre-season
>>>>>>>> demonstration
>>>>>>>> game with the Steelers the other night? It went from 10-3 or
>>>>>>>> something like that over the Ravens in the first half to a total
>>>>>>>> upset by the final goal. I thought it wasn't going to change
>>>>>>>> so I
>>>>>>>> was spending most of the time watching something more
>>>>>>>> interesting on
>>>>>>>> PBS.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Aug 28, 2009, at 5:07 PM, Derrick Brashear wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Schneider
>>>>>>>>> Fred<fwschneider at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Very interesting ... in some respects one would think there
>>>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>>> railfan hinding in the staff ...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Wonder if Fred Mergner is still there.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 8 Perrysville, 39 Brookline, 78
>>>>>>>>>> Oakmont (gone since the earth was cooling), 40 Mt.
>>>>>>>>>> Washington, 44
>>>>>>>>>> Knoxville.
>>>>>>>>>> I guess I have two thoughts. The positive one is its good to
>>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>>> confusing the riders with 11A, 11B, 11C, 11D, 11E ... °.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I wonder why we decided to confuse people on urban interstates
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> mileage-based exit numbers which work out
>>>>>>>>> to 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D (quick, which one is Grant St?)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The negative is do we really have to mess with what has been
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>>> since 1964 ... it's been there for 45 years now. This is as
>>>>>>>>>> bad as
>>>>>>>>>> PAT screwing with what Pittsburgh Railways had in place for
>>>>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> long. By now the public has no recollection of 8 PERRYSVILLE
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> they do understand 11D PERRYSVILLE AVENUE.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In many cases, the routes are not the same anymore, so, your
>>>>>>>>> old 11D
>>>>>>>>> may not be your new bus for the same ride.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The other thing very obvious to me is that the routes of
>>>>>>>>>> yore are
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> the routes of today. If you pull out a contemporary transit
>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> and compare it to a 1955 Pittsburgh Railways map, where we
>>>>>>>>>> run to
>>>>>>>>>> today isn't where we ran to back then. The demand today
>>>>>>>>>> isn't the
>>>>>>>>>> same as it was then. Almost a half a century has elapsed and
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> PAT service area has lost close to a million people.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Some are. Many aren't.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I would really like to see comparisons in peak hour riding
>>>>>>>>>> past the
>>>>>>>>>> maximum load point in 1945, 1960 and 2009 for Perrysville,
>>>>>>>>>> Frankstown, Ellsworth, Lincoln, Butler Street, Millvale,
>>>>>>>>>> routes 18,
>>>>>>>>>> 19 and 20 which is all one route today, and the 2nd Avenue
>>>>>>>>>> lines.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Some 2007 numbers were in the TDP documents leading up to this
>>>>>>>>> point,
>>>>>>>>> in the alternatives analysis. I wasted entirely too much time
>>>>>>>>> reading
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Derrick
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
>>>>>>> http://www.bing.com/cashback?
>>>>>>> form= 
>>>>>>> MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSC
>>>>>>> ashback_1x1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
>>>>>> http://www.bing.com/cashback?
>>>>>> form= 
>>>>>> MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCa
>>>>>> shback_1x1
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
>>> -- Type: multipart/appledouble
>>> -- Size: 614k (629436 bytes)
>>> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/ecartOnx9cI
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>

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