[PRCo] Re: Funeral cars

Wed Mar 4 18:36:39 EST 2009

Yes ... relatively compared to other things because of efficiency of  
scale.   In other words, they did not go up as fast as other  
things.   If they had gone up as much as normal, that nickel fare in  
1900 should have been 50 cents in 1950 but it was only about 15  
cents.   Why?  Because we fired all the conductors ...that probably  
accounts for about 40 percent of it ... we lengthed the vehicles from  
16 feet with horse cars to 18 feet with electric cars to 28 foot  
Birneys at 45 foot Jones cars in Pittsburgh and 46 foot PCCs and 101  
foot articulated cars on Euclid Avenue in Cleveland.    What worked  
against that, after about 1945, was the addition of vacations,  
holidays, hospitalization, sick leave, time and half and double time.

Then after 1950 it all reversed again because we lost all the  
efficiency of scale ... there is no efficiency running empty  
vehicles.   So by 2000 what should have been $1.50 based on the 15  
cents in 1950 was more like $5.00 or $6.00.   (And before someone  
says the fares were only a buck ... I'm including operating and  
capital subsidies.)

If you use normal accounting rules, which government doesn't use, and  
include depreciation as well as the cost of capital, then the lowest  
unit cost per passenger today is probably around $8.00 in Washington  
DC.    But the cost of capital will perpetually rise because we never  
pay off the federal share, we just keep passing it on to our  
grandkids.  So you can probably add depreciation, the payoff and  
interest on bonds on the local share, depreciation, and a constantly  
increasing amount of interest on the federal share.   But who wants  
realism in your fares??????

I suspect some of the lower costs might be capital for San Diego  
Trolley's first route, because the feds were totally excluded from  
it, it was over 30 years ago so I suspect they might have paid it off  
by now including the first cars.   Same way with PATCO which was 40  
years old this week.   And New York City's subways, unless there was  
federal money in buying the IRT or BMT in 1940 or funding the  
construction of the IND in the 1930s but even if the feds were  
involved, they might have only been loans.

It's a whole new subject and I'm trying to get packed to go look at  
the Phoenix light rail.   No time to really explore it now.

On Mar 4, 2009, at 5:31 PM, John Swindler wrote:

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> Costs in the industry did not decline between 1900 and 1950.
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>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
>> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:57:55 -0500
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>
>> Just thinking out loud two zones to Glenside ... 10 cents up, 10
>> cents back ... 20 cents per rider ... probably a guaranteed minimum
>> of 40 fares $8.00 plus a fee to haul the casket ... maybe $10 a trip.
>>
>> I chartered a Pittsburgh car in 1958 for eight hours for $94.80.
>> Now if we consider that costs in the industry declined from 1900 to
>> 1950 because cars were lengthened and crews were made smaller, then
>> may $15 would be reasonable back in 1912.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 3, 2009, at 11:13 PM, Richard Allman wrote:
>>
>>> Fred et. al.-sounds like Bill has the answer-thanks! Wonder what
>>> the fee
>>> was? If there were 100 funerals annually(more than one per day a
>>> logistical
>>> nightmare, given distances and slowness of PRT) $25 per? just
>>> guessing.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bill Robb" <bill937ca at yahoo.ca>
>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:56 PM
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cox says the car was built at the suggestion of the Hillside
>>>> Cemetery who
>>>> guaranteed a minimum $2500 annual return to PRT for seven years.
>>>> The car
>>>> was built on Brill order 18358, booked on 23 May 1912 and cost
>>>> $4300. The
>>>> car was made to resemble as closely as possible a Near Side car.
>>>> Hillside
>>>> Cemetery had priority on the use of the car and provided about 75%
>>>> of the
>>>> revenues, but other cemeteries were allowed to use the car when it
>>>> was not
>>>> otherwise scheduled. It was dismantled in 1932.
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> not sure! Question for Dick Vible who is wise in all such matters-
>>>> will ask
>>>> him @ East Penn this Friday.
>>>> The car had a door for the casket and was furnished differently
>>>> than the
>>>> usual Nearside decor. I seem to recall old PRT track maps  
>>>> showing the
>>>> Hillside Cemetery siding.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:47 PM
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So Rich, did PRT have 1500 Nearsides with 1 converted to the
>>>>> Hillside .... or 1501 with the Hillside built as a separate order?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 3, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Richard Allman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> actually, Ed Torpey's was called Fernwood-the PRT car was the
>>>>>> Hillside. I
>>>>>> did some research a few years ago and it turns out that my
>>>>>> great-grandmother, Jane Bunting had her last ride on the Hillside
>>>>>> in 1919,
>>>>>> from a funeral home in Kensington section of the city, over
>>>>>> whatever routes
>>>>>> to Old York Road, and then out Route 6 to Hillside Cemetery in
>>>>>> Glenside. PRT
>>>>>> had a siding at the cemetery. My mother had told me of the  
>>>>>> trip the
>>>>>> family
>>>>>> made on that January, 1919 day. The car was a Nearside.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "BobDietrich" <bob.dietrich1 at verizon.net>
>>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:15 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Philly Funeral car - or
>>>>>>> did I miss
>>>>>>> it. It was called Fernwood. I only know this because in 1973 Ed
>>>>>>> Torpey
>>>>>>> won
>>>>>>> an East Penn contest with his model of the car.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Ken
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Tracie
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:40 PM
>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I looked up the following information:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chicago's funeral car was simply "Number One." Also read that  
>>>>>>> St.
>>>>>>> Louis
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Buffalo had funeral cars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen photos of Duluth, Minnesota's trolley "fire engine."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> K.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Edward H. Lybarger" <trams2 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 2:51 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PRC did not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Phillip
>>>>>>>> Clark Campbell
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:05 PM
>>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Funeral cars
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Did PRC have any funeral cars? Assume not; seems to be 'more'
>>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>> Western-US phenomenon doesn't it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
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