[PRCo] Re: Funeral cars

John Swindler j_swindler at hotmail.com
Thu Mar 5 10:44:28 EST 2009 

 

There's a difference between claiming that costs declined in the industry between 1900 and 1950 and then claiming declined compared to other things.

 

That's like some politician lamenting that they 'slashed the budget', and expenditures will still go up over $2 billion.  And I'm referring to a real world example in this state. That's not my definition of "slashed".  And that's not my definition of 'declined'.

 

The one area where costs might actually be lower between 1900 and 1950 could be the price of KWH.  But wages were higher due to post WWI and post WWII inflation.  Same goes for most commodities.

 

Cheers

John

 

 

 

 
> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 18:36:39 -0500
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> 
> Yes ... relatively compared to other things because of efficiency of 
> scale. In other words, they did not go up as fast as other 
> things. If they had gone up as much as normal, that nickel fare in 
> 1900 should have been 50 cents in 1950 but it was only about 15 
> cents. Why? Because we fired all the conductors ...that probably 
> accounts for about 40 percent of it ... we lengthed the vehicles from 
> 16 feet with horse cars to 18 feet with electric cars to 28 foot 
> Birneys at 45 foot Jones cars in Pittsburgh and 46 foot PCCs and 101 
> foot articulated cars on Euclid Avenue in Cleveland. What worked 
> against that, after about 1945, was the addition of vacations, 
> holidays, hospitalization, sick leave, time and half and double time.
> 
> Then after 1950 it all reversed again because we lost all the 
> efficiency of scale ... there is no efficiency running empty 
> vehicles. So by 2000 what should have been $1.50 based on the 15 
> cents in 1950 was more like $5.00 or $6.00. (And before someone 
> says the fares were only a buck ... I'm including operating and 
> capital subsidies.)
> 
> If you use normal accounting rules, which government doesn't use, and 
> include depreciation as well as the cost of capital, then the lowest 
> unit cost per passenger today is probably around $8.00 in Washington 
> DC. But the cost of capital will perpetually rise because we never 
> pay off the federal share, we just keep passing it on to our 
> grandkids. So you can probably add depreciation, the payoff and 
> interest on bonds on the local share, depreciation, and a constantly 
> increasing amount of interest on the federal share. But who wants 
> realism in your fares??????
> 
> I suspect some of the lower costs might be capital for San Diego 
> Trolley's first route, because the feds were totally excluded from 
> it, it was over 30 years ago so I suspect they might have paid it off 
> by now including the first cars. Same way with PATCO which was 40 
> years old this week. And New York City's subways, unless there was 
> federal money in buying the IRT or BMT in 1940 or funding the 
> construction of the IND in the 1930s but even if the feds were 
> involved, they might have only been loans.
> 
> It's a whole new subject and I'm trying to get packed to go look at 
> the Phoenix light rail. No time to really explore it now.
> 
> On Mar 4, 2009, at 5:31 PM, John Swindler wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Costs in the industry did not decline between 1900 and 1950.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
> >> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:57:55 -0500
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>
> >> Just thinking out loud two zones to Glenside ... 10 cents up, 10
> >> cents back ... 20 cents per rider ... probably a guaranteed minimum
> >> of 40 fares $8.00 plus a fee to haul the casket ... maybe $10 a trip.
> >>
> >> I chartered a Pittsburgh car in 1958 for eight hours for $94.80.
> >> Now if we consider that costs in the industry declined from 1900 to
> >> 1950 because cars were lengthened and crews were made smaller, then
> >> may $15 would be reasonable back in 1912.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 3, 2009, at 11:13 PM, Richard Allman wrote:
> >>
> >>> Fred et. al.-sounds like Bill has the answer-thanks! Wonder what
> >>> the fee
> >>> was? If there were 100 funerals annually(more than one per day a
> >>> logistical
> >>> nightmare, given distances and slowness of PRT) $25 per? just
> >>> guessing.
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Bill Robb" <bill937ca at yahoo.ca>
> >>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:56 PM
> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Cox says the car was built at the suggestion of the Hillside
> >>>> Cemetery who
> >>>> guaranteed a minimum $2500 annual return to PRT for seven years.
> >>>> The car
> >>>> was built on Brill order 18358, booked on 23 May 1912 and cost
> >>>> $4300. The
> >>>> car was made to resemble as closely as possible a Near Side car.
> >>>> Hillside
> >>>> Cemetery had priority on the use of the car and provided about 75%
> >>>> of the
> >>>> revenues, but other cemeteries were allowed to use the car when it
> >>>> was not
> >>>> otherwise scheduled. It was dismantled in 1932.
> >>>> Bill
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> not sure! Question for Dick Vible who is wise in all such matters-
> >>>> will ask
> >>>> him @ East Penn this Friday.
> >>>> The car had a door for the casket and was furnished differently
> >>>> than the
> >>>> usual Nearside decor. I seem to recall old PRT track maps 
> >>>> showing the
> >>>> Hillside Cemetery siding.
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> >>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:47 PM
> >>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> So Rich, did PRT have 1500 Nearsides with 1 converted to the
> >>>>> Hillside .... or 1501 with the Hillside built as a separate order?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mar 3, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Richard Allman wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> actually, Ed Torpey's was called Fernwood-the PRT car was the
> >>>>>> Hillside. I
> >>>>>> did some research a few years ago and it turns out that my
> >>>>>> great-grandmother, Jane Bunting had her last ride on the Hillside
> >>>>>> in 1919,
> >>>>>> from a funeral home in Kensington section of the city, over
> >>>>>> whatever routes
> >>>>>> to Old York Road, and then out Route 6 to Hillside Cemetery in
> >>>>>> Glenside. PRT
> >>>>>> had a siding at the cemetery. My mother had told me of the 
> >>>>>> trip the
> >>>>>> family
> >>>>>> made on that January, 1919 day. The car was a Nearside.
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "BobDietrich" <bob.dietrich1 at verizon.net>
> >>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:15 AM
> >>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Philly Funeral car - or
> >>>>>>> did I miss
> >>>>>>> it. It was called Fernwood. I only know this because in 1973 Ed
> >>>>>>> Torpey
> >>>>>>> won
> >>>>>>> an East Penn contest with his model of the car.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> >>>>>>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf
> >>>>>>> Of Ken
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> Tracie
> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:40 PM
> >>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I looked up the following information:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Chicago's funeral car was simply "Number One." Also read that 
> >>>>>>> St.
> >>>>>>> Louis
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> Buffalo had funeral cars.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have seen photos of Duluth, Minnesota's trolley "fire engine."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> K.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Edward H. Lybarger" <trams2 at comcast.net>
> >>>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 2:51 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Funeral cars
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> PRC did not.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> >>>>>>>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On
> >>>>>>>> Behalf Of
> >>>>>>>> Phillip
> >>>>>>>> Clark Campbell
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:05 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Funeral cars
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Did PRC have any funeral cars? Assume not; seems to be 'more'
> >>>>>>>> of a
> >>>>>>>> Western-US phenomenon doesn't it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Phil
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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> >
> 
> 
> 

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