[PRCo] Fwd: Re: wrong side of the river?

Fred Schneider fwschneider at comcast.net
Wed Sep 26 08:26:25 EDT 2012 

Why did not this get posted to your list, Derrick?
Begin forwarded message:

> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> Date: September 25, 2012 8:42:50 PM EDT
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Re: wrong side of the river?
> 
> Both Dwight and George are of the belief that it is the old Brady Street Bridge.   I was able to find only one on-line picture of that bridge and the angle is not all that great for verification, but the middle three trusses do look very similar to the picture originally submitted.    There are no pictures that I can find on line showing the trusses of the old Glenwood Bridge.
> 
>      http://www.brooklineconnection.com/history/Facts/BradyStreet.html
> 
>      http://www.flickr.com/photos/scott_beveridge/8014098467/
> 
> Regarding how bad 4398 looked back then … I don't feel like hunting where I buried the Pittsburgh Railways paint book to find out when it was last painted, but safe to say that the new railways company after 1949 did very little painting of yellow cars because they didn't have any money.   Remember, they had been separated from Duquesne Light and Equitable Gas.    PRC retained ten double end cars after 1953 for emergencies … fires, police standoffs, accidents, etc., and then rapidly discovered it was a lot easier to muster a few buses.   Those cars were the ten converted high speeds … mostly cars in the 4390s and all had K35 control.    While equipment was segregated to barns by control apparatus … Tylerdale, Charleroi, Highland, Ingram had cars with remote control (Pittsburgh called it Westinghouse HL but they were functionally knock offs of GE type M).  But the high speed double-end cars gravitated to one barn … Glenwood … because of one relatively fast route …. 99 Glassport.   
> 
> Back in 1958, I arranged a Pittsburgh fantrip for the Lancaster NRHS … we used 1707 and had all of eight passengers.   Now when you have eight people and one of them is five years old and your motorman is also an instructor (Roy Taylor), everyone of us got a chance to run that car.   Well, we also stopped in Glenwood that day and pulled out 4398 for pictures.   Believe me, it was pretty ratty looking and that was the period when the Pittsburgh Electric Railway Club was using it for fantrips.   The car you see today at PTM is all new below the letterboard … explains why you no longer see a crease in the panel under the first window from a sagging platform.   Even 3756 in the attached picture (if encartis doesn't eat it), has been repainted at since the museum acquired it.  None of these cars look as bad as then did when PRC was running them.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding why Scott Beveridge posted something that was incorrect?  Ed Lybarger and I have been party all last week to a running argument about why CERA allowed egregious errors to be published in their new Pittsburgh book.  They should have know better.   Well, it's a lot easier to complain than do the work.  Phrased differently, there is nothing that cannot be done if you do not have to do it.  
> 
> If you will indulge this 72-year-old for a few minutes, please.   My mentors in this hobby were older gentlemen who remembered what it was like back when.   The oldest man I knew in the hobby was taking pictures of the Lancaster to Lititz trolleys in front of his home in 1905.  Harry died in 1957.  Thankfully he wrote down a lot of local history.   I was given access to the glass plates of a local studio photographer before they closed their retail store in the 1960s … Darmstetter quit his studio operation in 1940 but it went back to about 1910.   The local railfans I knew were mostly snapping box camera images of local trolleys in 1931, 1932, 1933.  One of them had more money than he knew what to do with and drove around after school in a Buick hauling his Graflex reflex camera around.   You may have seen his name in the very early Trains magazines … William M. Moedinger, Jr.   The last of those early people in Lancaster died at age 96 two years ago.   One was Moedinger, the other was Jim Shuman.   But because of their friends, I got to know a lot of people from other areas … George Krambles, Bill Janssen, Bob Mehlehbeck.   I was running with the those old farts who are all dead now.
> 
> And then there were younger friends who died more recently.  Some of you remember the next two names.   A man named William D. Middleton wanted to borrow some of my pictures for the book Time of the Trolley back in 1965.   We arranged to meet in Philadelphia.   He came with a friend … Donald Duke, who lived in suburban Los Angeles.  I made one trip in 2010 to see of them.  Don died three months later.   The next spring I was able to see Bill before cancer took him.   They were both in their early 80s.
> 
> Think about it, we're now the old people and all most of us saw were PCCs.   John Swindler has commented many times about how I remember yellow cars in Pittsburgh and he doesn't.   Yes.  I remember the Laketon Shuttle which was right in his back yard … but I remember it as a 6, 7, 8 or 9-year-old, not as someone who really understood it.   I never rode it.   I was 11 when the Liberty Bell Route quit but I never rode it.   I did ride one West Penn car.
> 
> And the young kids today?   Do they understand that cables were used for guard rails in 1940 and that they were anchored to 12 inch poles?  No, because they never saw them.   If you are 20 or 30 or 40 year old, what is there in that picture of 4398 that tells you that it is staged?   Nothing because it was staged before you were born.   You don't have a clue.  
> 
> So please don't jump too hard on the man with track shoes.   Instead, someone (and I'm too old to know how to get too him via Yahoo) needs to explain gently what a fantrip is, that is staged, and where it is.   The historical society where he got the picture also needs to be told that they have been victimized.  
> 
> By the way, the egregious errors in the CERA book have been about which PCC was first.  It appears that some of the Brooklyn 1000s were in service before Pittsburgh 100 but all the B&QT documents have long since been destroyed.   The one Brooklyn fan who had preserved large amounts of data (Don Harold) was unable to provide me with anything really specific when I was doing the PCC book.   Again … no problem doing it if you don't have to do it.
> 
> 
> On Sep 25, 2012, at 6:44 PM, Dwight Long wrote:
> 
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> Right idea, wrong bridge.  The 10th St bridge is a suspension bridge.  The 
>> one in the fot is the Brady St Bridge.  See my earlier post on this.
>> 
>> Dwight
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>> To: "Pittsburgh Railways" <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 9:43 AM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: wrong side of the river?
>> 
>> 
>>>  I don't see a motorman??????? Could this be a staged photo - like maybe 
>>> fantrip??????   Disregarding the destination signs, the first impression 
>>> was Second Ave. near Tenth St. bridge.  But I have no faith in this first 
>>> impression.  So back to Charleroi area. John
>>>> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 05:59:03 -0700
>>>> From: pcc_sr at yahoo.com
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: wrong side of the river?
>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>>>> 
>>>> Mr.Brashear,
>>>> 
>>>> This looks like a case for Detective Lybarger doesn't it.  We know
>>>> the only place the Charleroi line crossed the Monongahela is downtown
>>>> Pittsburgh isn't it.  Thus the car is apparently heading south rather
>>>> than north.
>>>> 
>>>> Is it near Monongahela City?  A bridge over a tributary is at Black
>>>> Diamond Jct; double track leads to the Jct.  But this does not seem
>>>> to fit.  It appears the car is on a bridge; the railing far side suggests
>>>> this.  It also seems rather new construction; paving is new as well.
>>>> The bridge across the Monongahela doesn't fit this location does it.
>>>> 
>>>> It looks like a coal tipple or associated structure spans the highway
>>>> in the distance; I can not determine what the trolley tracks do at that
>>>> distance.  I am looking for evidence of single track.
>>>> 
>>>> If the signs are correct this is a shuttle from Mongahela south and
>>>> return not the Donora car.  I can not detect the motorman at the
>>>> controller.  Did the car stop and pose for this picture?  Do schedules
>>>> reveal a run or train "86"?
>>>> 
>>>> If the signs are correct this could be other places along the river
>>>> from Mongahela south.  Does it fit any other location?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Phil
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Derrick Brashear <shadow at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: Pittsburgh Railways Group <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:01 AM
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] wrong side of the river?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Was route 906 on the west shore of the river ever? I assumed it was
>>>>> always on the other side, only, and
>>>>> thus the caption is incorrect?
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/scott_beveridge/8014098467/
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Derrick
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>

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