[PRCo] Cleveland numbers
Lattner, Raymond
rlattner at pa.gov
Tue Nov 26 14:36:03 EST 2013
Wow you guys are fussy. Didn't any of you read my disclaimer.
Yes I know people use public transit and that some of them are young
and choose to do so. Although, it has been my experience that parking
costs and availability seems to be the main factor if one drives or uses
public transit. Yes I know there are other factors.
I know people that use transit to and from work but that is it.
If going to church, shopping , doctors, relatives, etc. they use their car, more convenient.
I am sure there are people who use public transit for everything, but they are far and few.
I just remembered there are 2 guys up the street from me and neither one of them has a license, guess what they do.
I 'll tell you, they both get their sister and niece to drive them everywhere. How about that!
By the way, neither one of my parents ever drove. Never a problem for us growing up
In Mt. Oliver which had everything we needed within walking distance. My dad got to and from work,
J&L South Side, mostly by trolley then bus and occasionally by co-worker with a car. He also would
Walk to work sometimes in the summer but never walked home. Well, maybe during transit strikes.
Went to visit relatives by trolley and bus, same for doctor visits. Sometimes by police when
They provided that service back in the day. Doctor visits, not visiting relatives.
I will say the minute my sister and I turned 16 that was the end of public transit for us.
My sister and I were now chauffeurs for my dad and mom.
Your experiences may be different.
Ray
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of John Swindler
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:58 AM
To: Western PA Trolley discussion
Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
Bob Sauer was another person without a car. Finally got a driver's license and auto when he retired. But this requires a disclaimer - Bob worked for WMATA schedule department and used intercity bus to travel home to Reading.
Again, the norm is auto dependent. But there are those few percent out there that rely on transit. It was a surprise to me - something that never would have considered.
> From: hrbran at cavtel.net<mailto:hrbran at cavtel.net>
> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:40:38 -0500
> To: pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
>
> I can introduce you to three young people in my apartment building.
> They are one male 23 yrs old, one female 22yrs old and one female 24
> yrs old. I can also introduce you to the other four people living in
> the building (NOT counting myself) who are all past 45 years old who
> use PATransit on a daily basis. I am the only person in my building
> who has a vehicle. Also, those young people are daily riders of
> PATransit. Sometimes, like I have always said, we tend not to really
> get to know the city and are content to stay in the suburban areas.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Derrick Brashear <shadow at dementix.org<mailto:shadow at dementix.org>>wrote:
>
> > i'm younger. well. probably younger than the rest of you. i'm 40.
> >
> > if i can avoid driving i do. before i had an enforced 1 month pause
> > in biking due to breaking my hand i rode 2500 miles from may 1 to
> > september 25, including trips to such places as new kensington
> > (round trip), monroeville (also round trip), manor, and robinson
> > (the short way, 14 miles via steuben st, and the long way, 68 miles
> > via glassport and clairton.
> >
> > so yeah.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Lattner, Raymond <rlattner at pa.gov<mailto:rlattner at pa.gov>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Who are these "younger people" that you speak of that do not want
> > > to
> > drive
> > > by choice? I can tell you
> > > That in my world both my son and daughter could think of nothing
> > > but the day they could obtain their Learners permit to drive.
> > > Ditto for buying their own cars. This was true of all their
> > > friends also.
> > >
> > > Take public transit when they could drive themselves, NEVER.
> > >
> > > Disclaimer. This was meant in a humorous way and not to criticize
> > > your comments.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org> [mailto:
> > > pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org>] On Behalf Of
> > > John Swindler
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:04 AM
> > > To: Western PA Trolley discussion
> > > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Transit ridership is rising for several reasons. One surprise was
> > > that younger people don't think the same way as us "old geezer" generation.
> > > They are NOT as enamored by autos. Not massive numbers of young
> > > people
> > -
> > > just a couple percentage points. Negligible effect on highways,
> > > but significant impact on transit ridership. This comment was
> > > from Amtrak - they are finding young people not only without cars,
> > > but without drivers license - not by circumstances, but by choice.
> > >
> > > Also, never realized that Amtrak handles four oil trains a day to
> > > a Delaware refinery. Amtrak admits they never saw (this traffic) coming.
> > >
> > > And we should all be aware that VRE exists. I thought it was just
> > > a couple daily commuter trains from Virginia into Washington.
> > > Didn't
> > realize
> > > that it was 30 daily trains. Busiest station?? If assumed it was
> > > Union Station, would be wrong. It's L'Enfant Plaza. VRE is
> > > currently at capacity and has more cars on-order. Also
> > > negotiating with railroads for extensions to both lines.
> > >
> > > MARC ridership was around 18,000 in 1997. Currently around 36,000
> > riders.
> > > It's seen a 3.5% average annual growth over past 15 years.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: fwschneider at comcast.net<mailto:fwschneider at comcast.net>
> > > > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 10:25:48 -0500
> > > > To: pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
> > > >
> > > > The positive numbers are in the western and southwestern cities. Los
> > > Angeles has more rail riders today than Pacific Electric had in
> > > their
> > 1923
> > > peak.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 26, 2013, at 6:18 AM, PC wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ..........><http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-r
> > > > > ailway s/2013-November/032450.html> ..........>from Fred
> > > > > Schneider fwschneider at comcast.net ..........>Sun Nov 24
> > > > > 11:32:53 EST 2013
> > > > >
> > > > > ..........>Do not know where you find positive Cleveland numbers.....
> > > > >
> > > > > The above is your original question isn't it. You could not
> > > > > find
> > > positive Cleveland Numbers. I answered that question didn't I.
> > > > > Positive Cleveland numbers were provided. Now all this below.......
> > > > > You seem disappointed that ridership is rising--transit
> > > > > ridership,
> > > trolley, tram, bus--interests of people on this list.
> > > > > How is it possible to please you?
> > > > >
> > > > > To address Cleveland ridership one observes the trend is
> > > > > sloping downward with occasional rises above and dips below this trendline.
> > > This is very openly noticed and admitted, along with the following:
> > > > > 1-birds are hatched, birds grow, birds live, birds grow old,
> > > > > birds
> > die.
> > > > > 2-animals are born, animals grow, animals live, animals grow
> > > > > old,
> > > animals die.
> > > > > 3-plants sprout, plants grow, plants live, plants grow old,
> > > > > plants
> > die.
> > > > > 4-People are born, people grow, people live, people grow old,
> > > > > people
> > > die.
> > > > > 5-a business is formed, the business grows, the business
> > > > > thrives, the
> > > business grows old, the business dies.
> > > > > 6-industries form, industries grow, industries thrive,
> > > > > industries
> > > grows old, industries die.
> > > > > 7-etc.
> > > > > 8-Everything has its day in the sun [then trundles into the
> > > > > mists of history.] Vanity vanity; all is vanity. King
> > > > > Solomon
> > > > >
> > > > > Nothing lasts forever does it. Nothing is all inclusive isn't it.
> > > > >
> > > > > But if it makes you happy:
> > > > >
> > > > > People are falling off transit! People are falling off transit!
> > > > > The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
> > > > > Woe is mankind. Woe is mankind.
> > > > > The end is here. The end is here.
> > > > >
> > > > > sighhh.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Pc
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > > > On Sun, 11/24/13, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net<mailto:fwschneider at comcast.net>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
> > > > > To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"
> > > > > <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>>
> > > > > Date: Sunday, November 24, 2013, 4:14 PM
> > > > >
> > > > > Most agencies in industrial areas had increases in the last
> > > > > three years because we were coming out
> > > > > of the recession. Of course if you only
> > > > > look at the last three years, then you miss the large drop in
> > > > > riding at the beginning of the recession.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cleveland had a drop of perhaps 12 million the year going into
> > > > > the
> > > > > 2010 recession but it appears to be masked by a series break
> > > > > in the counts between 2005 and
> > > > > 2006. A series break is a statistical term
> > > > > when something happens to screw up the
> > > > > data. The information was not sent to APTA
> > > > > for 2006 leading me to suspect that perhaps the guy or gal who
> > > > > was crunching the numbers in 2004 retired and the new person
> > > > > didn't understand how to do it the same way and took several
> > > > > years to get his or her act
> > > > > together. Then in 2008, Cleveland sent in
> > > > > data for both 2006 and 2007. Those 66 and 60 million numbers
> > > > > in 2006 and 2007 look rather fishy.
> > > > > S--t happens.
> > > > >
> > > > > The true numbers are probably more like a drop to about 52 or
> > > > > 53 million riders in the 2000-2001 recession, then back up to
> > > > > around 57 million through most of the early 200s until we hit
> > > > > the big recession and then down to 44 million.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here are the total Cleveland numbers (Bus, Rapid, Light Rail
> > > > > and Demand Responsive) since 1995 by year from the APTA website.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1995: 58.265 million Cleveland
> > > > > city population around 492,000.
> > > > > 1996: 58.736 million
> > > > > 1997: 60.892 million
> > > > > 1998: 60.557 million
> > > > > 1999: 59.300 million
> > > > > 2000: 59.116 million 2000-2001
> > > > > Recession Cleveland city population 2000 census
> > > > > 478,403
> > > > > 2001: 58.128 million Unemployed in
> > > > > Cleveland number around 45,000.
> > > > > 2002: 52.626 million
> > > > > 2003: 53.446 million Unemployed in
> > > > > Cleveland area top 60,000
> > > > > 2004: 55.419 million
> > > > > 2005: 57.026 million
> > > > > 2006: 66,602 million Average unemployed in
> > > > > Cleveland about 62,000
> > > > > 2007: 60,025 million Average unemployed in
> > > > > Cleveland region around 67,000
> > > > > 2008: 57,287 million 2008-2009
> > > > > recession Average unemployment in Cleveland
> > > > > around 72,000.
> > > > > 2009: 49,706 million Unemployment over
> > > > > 80,000 people in Cleveland
> > > > > 2010: 44.592 million Average unemployed in
> > > > > Cleveland between 95,000 and 100,000. City population
> > > > > 396,815.
> > > > > 2011: 46.175 million Average unemployed in
> > > > > Cleveland about 82,000.
> > > > > 2012: 48.152 million Unemployment in
> > > > > Cleveland in the high 70,000 range.
> > > > > 2012: looks like a 1/3 of 1% increase
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/ohio/cleveland/
> > > > >
> > > > > Phillip, I trust some agency numbers more than
> > > > > others. Houston, for example, counts light
> > > > > rail passengers as they walk through a light beam in the car
> > > > > doorway. No matter how they pay their fare
> > > > > ... pass, cash fare, or simply sneak on ... they are
> > > > > counted. PATCO is probably fairly reliable
> > > > > because every rider has a magnetically encoded ticket and they
> > > > > are counted going through the fare gates.
> > > > >
> > > > > In addition, some counts are just plain lies because the
> > > > > agencies are trying to prove to politicians that they are
> > > > > worth bigger subsidies. Some are accidental
> > > > > lies. Some are misunderstandings of
> > > > > procedures. Some are done by clerks who
> > > > > don't give a rat's ass. Some are excellent.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, except for the apparent break in the numbers in 2006 and
> > > > > 2007, I have no reason to suspect the continuity of the
> > > > > Cleveland numbers because they mirror what is happening in the
> > > > > economy and with the local population.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > ays
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> --
> Herb Brannon
>
>
> *In Pittsburgh.............................A City AndAnd A State of
> Mind* Let's Go Pens Let's Go Steelers
>
>
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