[PRCo] Cleveland numbers
John Swindler
j_swindler at hotmail.com
Tue Nov 26 17:40:49 EST 2013
My last six years at PennDOT involved managing the senior free transit program, and this included visiting 8-10 transit systems each year. And I always included rides on 2-3 buses. Initially would have bet the farm that buses mostly empty and only senior citizens rode public transit during mid-day. Instead it was a far stranger world with lots of surprises. I'm still clueless where/why most people were riding the bus. But it was interesting to watch - and listen.
> From: rlattner at pa.gov
> To: pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org
> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:36:03 -0500
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
>
> Wow you guys are fussy. Didn't any of you read my disclaimer.
>
> Yes I know people use public transit and that some of them are young
> and choose to do so. Although, it has been my experience that parking
> costs and availability seems to be the main factor if one drives or uses
> public transit. Yes I know there are other factors.
>
> I know people that use transit to and from work but that is it.
> If going to church, shopping , doctors, relatives, etc. they use their car, more convenient.
>
> I am sure there are people who use public transit for everything, but they are far and few.
>
> I just remembered there are 2 guys up the street from me and neither one of them has a license, guess what they do.
> I 'll tell you, they both get their sister and niece to drive them everywhere. How about that!
>
> By the way, neither one of my parents ever drove. Never a problem for us growing up
> In Mt. Oliver which had everything we needed within walking distance. My dad got to and from work,
> J&L South Side, mostly by trolley then bus and occasionally by co-worker with a car. He also would
> Walk to work sometimes in the summer but never walked home. Well, maybe during transit strikes.
>
> Went to visit relatives by trolley and bus, same for doctor visits. Sometimes by police when
> They provided that service back in the day. Doctor visits, not visiting relatives.
>
> I will say the minute my sister and I turned 16 that was the end of public transit for us.
> My sister and I were now chauffeurs for my dad and mom.
>
> Your experiences may be different.
>
> Ray
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org] On Behalf Of John Swindler
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:58 AM
> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
>
>
>
> Bob Sauer was another person without a car. Finally got a driver's license and auto when he retired. But this requires a disclaimer - Bob worked for WMATA schedule department and used intercity bus to travel home to Reading.
>
> Again, the norm is auto dependent. But there are those few percent out there that rely on transit. It was a surprise to me - something that never would have considered.
>
>
>
> > From: hrbran at cavtel.net<mailto:hrbran at cavtel.net>
> > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:40:38 -0500
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
> >
> > I can introduce you to three young people in my apartment building.
> > They are one male 23 yrs old, one female 22yrs old and one female 24
> > yrs old. I can also introduce you to the other four people living in
> > the building (NOT counting myself) who are all past 45 years old who
> > use PATransit on a daily basis. I am the only person in my building
> > who has a vehicle. Also, those young people are daily riders of
> > PATransit. Sometimes, like I have always said, we tend not to really
> > get to know the city and are content to stay in the suburban areas.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Derrick Brashear <shadow at dementix.org<mailto:shadow at dementix.org>>wrote:
> >
> > > i'm younger. well. probably younger than the rest of you. i'm 40.
> > >
> > > if i can avoid driving i do. before i had an enforced 1 month pause
> > > in biking due to breaking my hand i rode 2500 miles from may 1 to
> > > september 25, including trips to such places as new kensington
> > > (round trip), monroeville (also round trip), manor, and robinson
> > > (the short way, 14 miles via steuben st, and the long way, 68 miles
> > > via glassport and clairton.
> > >
> > > so yeah.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Lattner, Raymond <rlattner at pa.gov<mailto:rlattner at pa.gov>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Who are these "younger people" that you speak of that do not want
> > > > to
> > > drive
> > > > by choice? I can tell you
> > > > That in my world both my son and daughter could think of nothing
> > > > but the day they could obtain their Learners permit to drive.
> > > > Ditto for buying their own cars. This was true of all their
> > > > friends also.
> > > >
> > > > Take public transit when they could drive themselves, NEVER.
> > > >
> > > > Disclaimer. This was meant in a humorous way and not to criticize
> > > > your comments.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org> [mailto:
> > > > pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounces at mailman.dementix.org>] On Behalf Of
> > > > John Swindler
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:04 AM
> > > > To: Western PA Trolley discussion
> > > > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Transit ridership is rising for several reasons. One surprise was
> > > > that younger people don't think the same way as us "old geezer" generation.
> > > > They are NOT as enamored by autos. Not massive numbers of young
> > > > people
> > > -
> > > > just a couple percentage points. Negligible effect on highways,
> > > > but significant impact on transit ridership. This comment was
> > > > from Amtrak - they are finding young people not only without cars,
> > > > but without drivers license - not by circumstances, but by choice.
> > > >
> > > > Also, never realized that Amtrak handles four oil trains a day to
> > > > a Delaware refinery. Amtrak admits they never saw (this traffic) coming.
> > > >
> > > > And we should all be aware that VRE exists. I thought it was just
> > > > a couple daily commuter trains from Virginia into Washington.
> > > > Didn't
> > > realize
> > > > that it was 30 daily trains. Busiest station?? If assumed it was
> > > > Union Station, would be wrong. It's L'Enfant Plaza. VRE is
> > > > currently at capacity and has more cars on-order. Also
> > > > negotiating with railroads for extensions to both lines.
> > > >
> > > > MARC ridership was around 18,000 in 1997. Currently around 36,000
> > > riders.
> > > > It's seen a 3.5% average annual growth over past 15 years.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > From: fwschneider at comcast.net<mailto:fwschneider at comcast.net>
> > > > > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 10:25:48 -0500
> > > > > To: pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
> > > > >
> > > > > The positive numbers are in the western and southwestern cities. Los
> > > > Angeles has more rail riders today than Pacific Electric had in
> > > > their
> > > 1923
> > > > peak.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 26, 2013, at 6:18 AM, PC wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ..........><http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-r
> > > > > > ailway s/2013-November/032450.html> ..........>from Fred
> > > > > > Schneider fwschneider at comcast.net ..........>Sun Nov 24
> > > > > > 11:32:53 EST 2013
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ..........>Do not know where you find positive Cleveland numbers.....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The above is your original question isn't it. You could not
> > > > > > find
> > > > positive Cleveland Numbers. I answered that question didn't I.
> > > > > > Positive Cleveland numbers were provided. Now all this below.......
> > > > > > You seem disappointed that ridership is rising--transit
> > > > > > ridership,
> > > > trolley, tram, bus--interests of people on this list.
> > > > > > How is it possible to please you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To address Cleveland ridership one observes the trend is
> > > > > > sloping downward with occasional rises above and dips below this trendline.
> > > > This is very openly noticed and admitted, along with the following:
> > > > > > 1-birds are hatched, birds grow, birds live, birds grow old,
> > > > > > birds
> > > die.
> > > > > > 2-animals are born, animals grow, animals live, animals grow
> > > > > > old,
> > > > animals die.
> > > > > > 3-plants sprout, plants grow, plants live, plants grow old,
> > > > > > plants
> > > die.
> > > > > > 4-People are born, people grow, people live, people grow old,
> > > > > > people
> > > > die.
> > > > > > 5-a business is formed, the business grows, the business
> > > > > > thrives, the
> > > > business grows old, the business dies.
> > > > > > 6-industries form, industries grow, industries thrive,
> > > > > > industries
> > > > grows old, industries die.
> > > > > > 7-etc.
> > > > > > 8-Everything has its day in the sun [then trundles into the
> > > > > > mists of history.] Vanity vanity; all is vanity. King
> > > > > > Solomon
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nothing lasts forever does it. Nothing is all inclusive isn't it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But if it makes you happy:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > People are falling off transit! People are falling off transit!
> > > > > > The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
> > > > > > Woe is mankind. Woe is mankind.
> > > > > > The end is here. The end is here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > sighhh.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pc
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > > > > On Sun, 11/24/13, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net<mailto:fwschneider at comcast.net>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Subject: [PRCo] Cleveland numbers
> > > > > > To: "Western PA Trolley discussion"
> > > > > > <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>>
> > > > > > Date: Sunday, November 24, 2013, 4:14 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most agencies in industrial areas had increases in the last
> > > > > > three years because we were coming out
> > > > > > of the recession. Of course if you only
> > > > > > look at the last three years, then you miss the large drop in
> > > > > > riding at the beginning of the recession.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cleveland had a drop of perhaps 12 million the year going into
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > 2010 recession but it appears to be masked by a series break
> > > > > > in the counts between 2005 and
> > > > > > 2006. A series break is a statistical term
> > > > > > when something happens to screw up the
> > > > > > data. The information was not sent to APTA
> > > > > > for 2006 leading me to suspect that perhaps the guy or gal who
> > > > > > was crunching the numbers in 2004 retired and the new person
> > > > > > didn't understand how to do it the same way and took several
> > > > > > years to get his or her act
> > > > > > together. Then in 2008, Cleveland sent in
> > > > > > data for both 2006 and 2007. Those 66 and 60 million numbers
> > > > > > in 2006 and 2007 look rather fishy.
> > > > > > S--t happens.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The true numbers are probably more like a drop to about 52 or
> > > > > > 53 million riders in the 2000-2001 recession, then back up to
> > > > > > around 57 million through most of the early 200s until we hit
> > > > > > the big recession and then down to 44 million.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here are the total Cleveland numbers (Bus, Rapid, Light Rail
> > > > > > and Demand Responsive) since 1995 by year from the APTA website.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1995: 58.265 million Cleveland
> > > > > > city population around 492,000.
> > > > > > 1996: 58.736 million
> > > > > > 1997: 60.892 million
> > > > > > 1998: 60.557 million
> > > > > > 1999: 59.300 million
> > > > > > 2000: 59.116 million 2000-2001
> > > > > > Recession Cleveland city population 2000 census
> > > > > > 478,403
> > > > > > 2001: 58.128 million Unemployed in
> > > > > > Cleveland number around 45,000.
> > > > > > 2002: 52.626 million
> > > > > > 2003: 53.446 million Unemployed in
> > > > > > Cleveland area top 60,000
> > > > > > 2004: 55.419 million
> > > > > > 2005: 57.026 million
> > > > > > 2006: 66,602 million Average unemployed in
> > > > > > Cleveland about 62,000
> > > > > > 2007: 60,025 million Average unemployed in
> > > > > > Cleveland region around 67,000
> > > > > > 2008: 57,287 million 2008-2009
> > > > > > recession Average unemployment in Cleveland
> > > > > > around 72,000.
> > > > > > 2009: 49,706 million Unemployment over
> > > > > > 80,000 people in Cleveland
> > > > > > 2010: 44.592 million Average unemployed in
> > > > > > Cleveland between 95,000 and 100,000. City population
> > > > > > 396,815.
> > > > > > 2011: 46.175 million Average unemployed in
> > > > > > Cleveland about 82,000.
> > > > > > 2012: 48.152 million Unemployment in
> > > > > > Cleveland in the high 70,000 range.
> > > > > > 2012: looks like a 1/3 of 1% increase
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/ohio/cleveland/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Phillip, I trust some agency numbers more than
> > > > > > others. Houston, for example, counts light
> > > > > > rail passengers as they walk through a light beam in the car
> > > > > > doorway. No matter how they pay their fare
> > > > > > ... pass, cash fare, or simply sneak on ... they are
> > > > > > counted. PATCO is probably fairly reliable
> > > > > > because every rider has a magnetically encoded ticket and they
> > > > > > are counted going through the fare gates.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In addition, some counts are just plain lies because the
> > > > > > agencies are trying to prove to politicians that they are
> > > > > > worth bigger subsidies. Some are accidental
> > > > > > lies. Some are misunderstandings of
> > > > > > procedures. Some are done by clerks who
> > > > > > don't give a rat's ass. Some are excellent.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, except for the apparent break in the numbers in 2006 and
> > > > > > 2007, I have no reason to suspect the continuity of the
> > > > > > Cleveland numbers because they mirror what is happening in the
> > > > > > economy and with the local population.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
> > > > > > Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> > > > > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railw
> > > > > > ays
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
> > > > > Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> > > > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railway
> > > > > s
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> > > > scrubbed...
> > > > URL:
> > > >
> > > http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachment
> > > s/20131126/5e0b8ec8/attachment.html
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
> > > > Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> > > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
> > > > Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> > > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> > > scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> > > http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachment
> > > s/20131126/4f467f97/attachment.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
> > > Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> > > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Herb Brannon
> >
> >
> > *In Pittsburgh.............................A City AndAnd A State of
> > Mind* Let's Go Pens Let's Go Steelers
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> > scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/
> > 20131126/63a2f65f/attachment.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
> > Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> > https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20131126/619a2ac8/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
> Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org<mailto:Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20131126/48d4c6b7/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
> Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org
> https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20131126/d8896739/attachment.html
More information about the Pittsburgh-railways
mailing list