[PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953

Wed Sep 10 18:25:56 EDT 2014

Charleroi car house was closed a few weeks (don't have the exact date here) before the line was abandoned south of Simmons.  All service was then operated out of the Interurban barn at Tunnel.  As to the 3800 which languished there for a long time, I have seen that car.  It is my understanding that it was towed to Ingram some time in 1952, early 1952, for scrapping.  It was not there in late 1952 when WP 832 was moved to Charleroi and stored there until May 1953.  I don't know when the other equipment was moved, but no doubt prior to or right after the barn closed.

There is another possibility that neither one of us has mentioned heretofore and that is that the Simmons loop was already constructed WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE PIECE WHERE THE SOUTHBOUND  MAIN WAS,  and possibly where the loop track intersected the northbound main.  These pieces could have been fabricated and on site, so that after service on Rt. C ceased, all that would have had to be done was to remove rail at one or two locations (either with the gas wrench or by unbolting rail sections) and insert and bolt or weld in the missing pieces.  This could have been done, with a large enough crew, very quickly and would have been the least expensive way to accomplish inauguration of Simmons loop.  

Unless, and I doubt this was true, the loop were made with a PERFECT 90 DEGREE INTERSECTION of the loop track with the southbound main, a SPECIALLY-CONSTRUCTED set of frogs would have had to be fabricated according to the respective angles.  That would have been expensive.  Drake loop was, as you say, a reuse of the Sewickley loop, but Drake was all new work which could be done without the impact of traffic, as the Walthers wye sufficed til it was done.  Not at all comparable to the situation at Simmons.

Tylerdale CH was also closed before the end of service on the W line, so I don't know what car would have been the last one out of there.  No doubt, however, it would have been before the end of revenue service, not before that.  The last passenger cars on Rt. W south of Ruthfred were in March 1954 but none of them went as far south as Tylerdale CH.  WP 832 went the furthest south but it turned at a point short of Tylerdale.  The W line was scrapped (OHL and track) using rubber-tired vehicles--I have fots of this--and I ASSUME C line was done in same way.

Sorry I will not see you on Friday, but I will try to find what I can in the archives and will report accordingly.

Dwight
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Holland, James B. 
  To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:50 PM
  Subject: [PRCo] Simmons Loop, June-July-1953

  >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Holland, James B. <PRCoPCC at 
  >> p-r-co.com> wrote:
  >>
  >> ....... About a decade ago a photo was posted here showing the 
  >> crossing -- the photographer was south looking north.  I believe Mark 
  >> in Florida posted the photo.  I have searched the lisp photo files:
  >> http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/
  >> ...using:  "Char; prw; loop; track; sim" each of them separately to 
  >> see if I could find the photo which I could not.  Maybe others shall 
  >> be more successful.
  >
  >
  > On Mon Sep 8 06:57:37 EDT 2014, D Brashear shadow at dementix.org wrote
  >
  > Jim, right idea but no picture.  Mark [McGuire] said:
  >
  >     "There is a shot on page 127 (bottom) in Leroy King's Vol. IV of a
  >     1700 car at Simmons taken from the abandoned Charleroi trackage
  >     looking north. Now I just need to find something similar but
  >     looking south into the abandoned trackage. I have an old Bill
  >     Gwinn contact print of 4398 on a fantrip looking south but it is
  >     very blurry."
  >

  Ahhhhhhh -- list server Just Back Up and Online And Hopefully running 
  .......

  Thank You Mark and Daria! -- The book-photo IS fuzzy but NB Charleroi 
  tangent/'straight' rails clearly indicate guard rails whether or not the 
  point/mate are still in place.  Guard rails would not be on a tangent at 
  this location without special work.  The picture I am looking for 
  clearly shows the crossing frogs in the loop/SB track to Charleroi, a 
  prw photo similar view of book.  Such a crossing is "Not New 
  Fabrication" but reclaimed from elsewhere on PRCo (Sewickley loop became 
  Drake loop--Undt Udders!)++  Here is another pic of elusive 1701 at 
  Simmons (possibly from Mark) looking the other direction.  But like 
  others, it does not tell us anything:
  1701_Simmons.jpg -- URL below

      ++  ".......  Railways generally had old hardware on hand (removed
      from other locations but still usable) for such purposes. Removal of
      crossing (along with trail point//mate) allow installation of larger
      curved section on new loop without excess joints."
      http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/2014-September/033337.html

  We can take a lesson from the "wording" about Washington Closure which 
  is in Noah's ArkIves for the list:  "PRCo PCC Interurban 1711 was the 
  last REVENUE run from Washington to Pgh."  It was NOT the last car out 
  of Tylerdale.

  Back to Charleroi:  While service was terminated, much is needed to 
  bring "Real Closure" to the line which includes moving both Spare 
  Revenue cars (PCCs, DE-Low-Floor cars, possibly one 3800-series car 
  which remained at least beyond end of service for said vehicles If Not 
  to the very end of Charleroi) and "M" equipment to other locations on 
  PRCo property as well as removal of overhead for scrap value then 
  dismantling the tracks.  There is much more to closing out operations 
  with real estate (barn) etc.  Thus the turnout in the NB track to allow 
  equipment from Charleroi to move to Pgh and work equipment to do what it 
  has to do down there.

  NO!  The rwy would not move spares ahead of closure.  Operation 
  continues as usual until after closure; one can not predict if car 
  changes shall not be necessary on final runs.  (As for Washington, the 
  city lines ended some weeks ahead of the interurban so those cars could 
  be moved out once they are not needed.)

  The 4398 would be almost 2+years after Char closure, too late for our needs.
  The following photos are URLs at the bottom of the email from the 
  following charter:
  1955.06.12    4398    PRCo    Monongahela Incline, 57, 32, 36, 35, 38A, 
  38, 42, 40, 48, 49, 22, 4, 5, 21, 8, 10, 15, 13, 6, 18.
  4398SimmonsLoop-01_19550612.jpg -- already posted as BIN

  4398SimmonsLoop-02_19550612.jpg -- already posted as BIN

  4398_36-Loop_19550612_1600.jpg

  This email in 'draft' when Daria posted to change BIN to JPG.  You did 
  post these photos to list 2003-10-28 -- or that is date I downloaded 
  it.  So now you have double copies of the photos; sell the extra one on 
  ebay!

  -- 
  *Jim*

  PS-------I had intended being at PTM Archives on Friday and Sat morn as 
  well (12-13-Sept), but plans have changed and that shall be rescheduled 
  later in the month.  I have rather active "schedule//timetable" into 
  early Oct.

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