[PRCo] PRC Interurban Service early 1950s
Dwight Long
dwightlong at verizon.net
Sun Sep 7 18:59:00 EDT 2014
The schedule attached was only the Drake schedule. If you sent another, dementix ate it. What is needed is the Rt. 37 schedule. The only ones I have are 1963 or newer and they show the service pattern (15 minute off peak headway--provided by the interurbans D and L) that was established, according to all evidence produced to date, in late 1951, when the W and C interurbans were changed to run 15 minutes apart rather than together and the restrictions against local hauling between the Triangle and Castle Shannon were modified. I do have interurban schedules for both W and C which show the post staggered schedule restrictions, which applied only to outbound trips in the evening rush and only to Frederick Street.
This past weekend I had occasion to speak personally with Art Ellis at the Hoosier Traction Meet. I asked about the changeover to staggered interurban schedules. His memory was quite clear on this and he was emphatic that the whole thing was done to eliminate Rt 37 trips in the non-rush hours. This is in complete conformity with my recollection and also with what John Baxter related in ER #20. Unless you can produce an actual schedule for Rt. 37 for late 1951 or early 1952 (pre-interurban abandonment) that shows otherwise, I will continue to go with my memory and the statements of PRC employees who were there and employees at the time. Anything else is just speculation.
Art also told me something I did not know. The interurban 1700s were delivered WITHOUT FARE BOXES. Fare boxes had to be installed in them in late 1951 in order to permit them to be used to provide local service between Castle Shannon and the Triangle. I told Art that I recalled riding the interurbans and that the operator used a supplied "plug" to block access to the farebox when operating beyond Castle Shannon, and he confirmed this as well.
As to the installation of the loop at Simmons, I was simply quoting from published reports contemporaneous to the discontinuance of Route C. I agree that what you postulate is POSSIBLE, however, I do not believe it is PROBABLE that it happened that way. The normally-thrifty PRC would not have wanted to spend the money for a custom made set of crossing frogs (then, as now, very expensive) for something that was going to exist for only a few days. Curving the rails for the loop is another matter; the loop was expected to, and did, last for many years. There would have been no "grading" involved as you suggest. The outbound Route C main track would have been jacked up and blocked slightly higher than the height of the rail and ties, and the latter slid under the resulting "miniature overpass." Then when the C service had ended, the outbound main could be either cut (by the "gas wrench") or the appropriate sections of rail unbolted and removed, leaving the newly-installed loop connection to the inbound main operable. This is a relatively simple and inexpensive procedure compared to purchasing or fabricating and installing custom track crossing frogs! Note that after all the cleanup of unneeded trackage at this site had occurred, there was still a short length of the SB C track left at Simmons as a cripple track. AFAIK it went almost to the point where the inbound loop track crossed the original SB main.
All that said, I will be at Arden this coming Friday, spending a volunteer day working in the archives. I will pester Ed to see if the archives contain: 1) a Rt. 37 schedule from the relevant time period; and 2) any additional facts concerning the construction and cut-in of the Simmons loop. Should they substantiate your theories I will be the first to salute you!
As to posting my photos of the last days of Rt. 38, I will not post them on this site because of what Dementix does with or to them. However, once I have a chance to pull them from file and scan them, I will be glad to send a few to you and anyone else who might be interested in receiving them directly, in the body of the email. This may be a while, as I think right now they are in Ed R's possession as candidates for the next PRC book.
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: Holland, James B.
To: 1711_PRCo_WP_JTC
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRC Interurban Service early 1950s
>> On 2014.09.04-Thur 11.12-AM, Jim Holland wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Chris!
>>
>> I believe we discussed this some time back but I can not find details
>> -- other computer crashed and information may be on it.
>>
>> Schedules on the 3-Interurbans the day after Washington service ended
>> 30-Aug-1953 reveal 10-minute headway through Overbrook mid-day.
>> Library and Drake cars had 20-min-headway mid-day; Shannon cars Only
>> Operated rush hours. (Those schedules are attached making it a
>> double-post for the lisp -- Please See PSs!)
>>
>> Schedule_35-36-37_19530830_1of2.jpg
>>
>> Schedule_35-36-37_19530830_2of2.jpg
>>
>> Thus it stands to reason when the Char and Wash Interurbans ceased
>> operations in tandem and operated 15-min-apart through Overbrook
>> (late 1950s, early 1951-forward) 15-min between Only Char and Wash
>> cars was insufficient to meet demand. As I Remember service through
>> Overbrook after tandem Interurban operations ceased was every 7-8-min
>> each direction "Mid-Day, 8-cars an hour." Thus Shannon and West
>> Library cars (37/L) split the headway between the Char and Wash
>> Interurbans. (Were schedules cut to the "Half-Minute?" We still had
>> those in the 1970s on San Fran Crisco Muni!)
>>
>> Using "(37/L)" for Shannon//WLibrary cars, a SB schedule from Pgh
>> (approx late 1950 into early-1953) might look something like this --
>> ALL cars running local--making all stops:
>>
>> 00--Char
>> 07--(37/L)
>> 15--Wash
>> 22--(37/L)
>> 30--Char
>> 37--(37/L)
>> 45--Wash
>> 52--(37/L)
>
> On Thu Sep 4 12:45:39 EDT 2014, Dwight Long dwightlong at verizon.net
> wrote
>
> Here is the story of Simmons Loop and its opening to service. The
> loop WAS constructed prior to the end of service on Rt. C early Sunday
> morning 28 June 1953. It was built such that the curve out of the
> loop leading to the northbound main line was laid UNDER the southbound
> main track. Just a few hours were needed later that Sunday for crews
> to cut the southbound main and put the loop into use.
Hi, Dwight!
SIX_Attachments Included.
Simmons loop was built at grade with a grade crossing (4-crossing frogs)
of the curve and SB main. Whether or not the northbound main had a
trail switch is not known but is suspected. This allows uninterrupted
operation (except very minor delays of installation); the unneeded
hardware can be removed any time after Charleroi ceases operations----NO
rush! About a decade ago a photo was posted here showing the crossing
-- the photographer was south looking north. I believe Mark in Florida
posted the photo. I have searched the lisp photo files:
http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/
...using: "Char; prw; loop; track; sim" each of them separately to see
if I could find the photo which I could not. Maybe others shall be more
successful.
Ed may have track diagrams at PTM which reveal this construction. I do
not understand construction underneath both SB and NB main tracks --
this would be far more work than necessary and result in bending rail
into a grade. Railways generally had old hardware on hand (removed from
other locations but still usable) for such purposes. Removal of crossing
(along with trail point//mate) allow installation of larger curved
section on new loop without excess joints.
> As to the question of when Rt. 37 became rush hour only, the
> reference I was seeking is in ERA Electric Railroads No. 20, published
> in July 1952, which was authored by John Baxter. He states: "A local
> service sharing the trackage out of Pittsburgh with the interurbans
> began operation to Fair Haven (Frederick Street) in 1916, extended
> later to Shannon, then to Library in 1924. Restrictions in riding
> interurbans locally in this area became effective from time to time
> from 1916 to the fall of 1951 when Route 37-Shannon service was
> eliminated during the off peak hours." After that rush hour
> interurbans carried a small sign in the front window stating something
> like "first stop Frederick Street" (I don't recall the exact
> wording). Operators were supposed to use the roll signs for the route
> WITHOUT the Shannon prefix, i.e. "Charleroi" instead of
> "Shannon-Charleroi," but human nature being what it is I have no idea
> how often this nicety was observed. More reliance, I assume, was
> placed upon the normals' knowing the drill and staying off the
> interurbans in rush hours if they were destined to points short of
> Frederick Street.
Here is a portion of what Chris wrote in response to my question quoted
above. He indicates the collection of schedules ceases with 1949. His
information is from March-1953 Schedules which confirm what I wrote:::
Castle Shannon to downtown and return to Castle Shannon was every
7-8+minutes with Char and Wash Interurbans 15-min apart and "Local"
service (37/L) centered between C & W!:::
On 2014-09-04 14:36, CWalker wrote:
March, 1953 -- Art Ellis saved a set of company schedules before
the system began to be pared down with the June operator "pick."
In 1953, they were operating a full compliment of Shannon cars
intermingled with the W and C runs -- so, as you point out,
mid-day service consisted of a car every 7 -- 8 minutes between
Shannon and Downtown. That may have been the case from 1951 on;
if I had to guess, I would say so. The weekend locals were
largely extended to Library as before. On Saturdays, the Library
trips operated a 30 minute headway most of the day, and were
interlined with 37 trips. In other words, the car ran into town
as Route L and left the city as Route 37. This provided a 15
minute local service between Castle Shannon and the city in
addition to the 15 minute interurbans. Sundays, the Library cars
ran every 15 minutes, again providing a combined 7 -- 8 minute
over the shared trackage.
The August 30 timetable shows the extent of the service after
the interurbans were cut. To some extent, scheduling was
simplified, especially for the Library cars which previously had
to be scheduled out of West Library Loop in "time windows" to
avoid fouling up the signals for the Charleroi runs (or getting
stuck in the loop and behind schedule).
There's more, I'm sure -- I'll do a little more looking once I
get home. Schedules tell a lot about the operation, and are a
great resource for understanding things!
Chris
I would suspect Ed Lybarger already knows this or knows of Chris
Walker's work; he may be able to confirm and enlarge upon the topic.
The above does not completely resolve the matter as this is data for
1953, but it does confirm what I mentioned for this time period with
logic strongly suggesting 8-cars an hour each way through Overbrook in
1951 instead of just 4-cars. With 6-cars each direction in Sept-1953,
an increase of 50% over alleged 4-cars in 1951, does not seem logical.
Anything IS possible, but that does not seem probable. Ridership was
dropping by 1953 as post-war economy was improving with returning vets
finding enough money to buy that Family car!
The 1952 "Headlights" special on the PRCo Interurban system is widely
owned and respected by many of us. It is a Very Good Source of
information but not infallible as has been discovered here over the last
decade -- it is good information until original PRCo documents are
discovered to confirm it or deny it.
> The same reference confirms that the diversionary route for the
> interurbans was indeed Rt. 38 on West Liberty Avenue and not through
> Beechview on Rt. 42 as I had remembered.
A portion of a 1961-schedule attached reveals a couple Drake trips that
returned to the Barn over the 38-Mt.Lebanon. I was surprized to see
that; it was rarely listed in the schedules. Library and Shannon cars
also did this on a very regular basis but they are not so listed. It
was more than a half-dozen cars.
Harold Geissenheimer was a lisp member -- he gave details of County Fair
Service at South Park post WW2 where ALL SB interurbans used the
38-Mt.Lebanon to Castle Shannon, then regular route. As Fair service
was about every minute, 38A service was busted. ALL NB Interurban
service used Overbrook. Signal masts north of Mesta were covered; all
operated on sight with many route inspectors at key points. A DE
shuttle using the SB track between Oak and Castle Shannon provided
'simulated' OB // SB traffic. A series of attached photos reveal this.
WE_LOOK_Forward to seeing some of your 38-Mt.Lebanon photos just before
"abandonment!" You are getting some nice photos here!
--
Jim
Schedule_36-Weekday_19610430_2of2_0600_020.jpg
3801_35+OB_DawnJct_19470901_CJD_018.jpg -- Beautiful photo -- SLCCo
Charleroi Interurban OB on 38-Mt.Lebanon
4913_35+OB_DawnRampWLibertyAve_19470901_CJD_021.jpg
3711_36+OB_DawnRampWLibertyAve_19470901_CJD_023.jpg
3711_36+IB_4322_37+OB_Oak_19470901_CJD_021.jpg
3801_SouthParkServiceDescription_19470901_CJD_025.jpg
*
*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20140905/f3897d53/attachment.html
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Schedule_36-Weekday_19610430_2of2_0600_020.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 99871 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20140905/f3897d53/attachment.jpg
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 3801_35+OB_DawnJct_19470901_CJD_018.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 66868 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20140905/f3897d53/attachment-0001.jpg
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 4913_35+OB_DawnRampWLibertyAve_19470901_CJD_021.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 48703 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20140905/f3897d53/attachment-0002.jpg
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 3711_36+OB_DawnRampWLibertyAve_19470901_CJD_023.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 157270 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20140905/f3897d53/attachment-0003.jpg
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 3711_36+IB_4322_37+OB_Oak_19470901_CJD_021.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 63704 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20140905/f3897d53/attachment-0004.jpg
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 3801_SouthParkServiceDescription_19470901_CJD_025.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 92537 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20140905/f3897d53/attachment-0005.jpg
_______________________________________________
Pittsburgh-railways mailing list
Pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org
https://mailman.dementix.org/mailman/listinfo/pittsburgh-railways
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.dementix.org/pipermail/pittsburgh-railways/attachments/20140907/f4173057/attachment.html
More information about the Pittsburgh-railways
mailing list