[PRCo] visual pollution or work of art
Fred Schneider
fwschneider at comcast.net
Mon Dec 16 15:09:46 EST 2013
Yes, the building contractor.
On Dec 16, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Derrick Brashear wrote:
> it was.
>
> same dick who founded dick corporation:
>
> http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/dick-corporation-history/
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:18 PM, Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>wrote:
>
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> Was not the full name of the company Noble J. Dick?
>>
>> Dwight
>>
>> From: Fred Schneider
>> Sent: Sunday, 15 December, 2013 19:50
>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] visual pollution or work of art
>> Is that a maintenance issue or a design flaw, Herb? You might use that
>> turn signal ten times a mile on a bus if its a busy urban route. You
>> might use it ten times a day in your own automobile. You would put more
>> wear on the turn signal mechanism in six months on that bus than you would
>> on the one in your car between the time it rolled off the showroom floor
>> and you towed it to the junkyard.
>>
>> I have to admit that I have ridden very few buses since the transit
>> agencies became wards of government. It isn't the same fun it was going
>> out to McKeesport on the trolley and coming back on Noble Dick's bus. (I
>> love that name.) They all look alike today. But back in the old days
>> when the earth was still cooling, I cannot remember a lot of problems. I
>> never saw a driver holding the turn signal to keep it flashing. So I
>> suspect it is just a case of transit authorities not wishing to spend bucks
>> that governments aren't giving them. They've probably been told to keep
>> them on the streets until enough goes wrong to justify getting a federal
>> grant to do a complete overhaul.
>>
>> Herb, I remember driving a school bus one day that had a brake failure.
>> The school district business manager's response was, "It's an old bus and
>> we don't plan to fix it." My immediate comment was, "If a kid gets hurt,
>> I will have a very long memory. Think about that." A week later I was
>> called in my classroom at the end of the day to take a bus run for a driver
>> who didn't show up. I asked what bus. I was told it was the one I
>> complained about but not to worry, they had spent over a thousand dollars
>> fixing it so that they wouldn't have me telling the newspapers. Herb, it
>> was an old bus … and I knew how to double-clutch it and use the engine to
>> help stop me when the brake pedal went to the floor. Can you imagine
>> someone who didn't know how to downshift it?
>>
>> But when I first saw those foot pedal turn signals in Atlanta as a
>> 16-year-old, I thought it was a neat idea to use the left foot that wasn't
>> otherwise needed on an automatic GM. Left hand steers, left foot hits the
>> turn signal, right hand makes change … talk about multi-tasking. You
>> could not have done that with a manual transmission Brill or Ford. Hell,
>> you would have needed both hands just to steer it away from the curb.
>>
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
>>
>>> New York TA started using them in the 1950s. Columbus, OH had some GM New
>>> Looks with them in the 1960s. The buses equipped with the turn signal
>>> "arms" on the steering column were always a pain in the @$$. The arms,
>>> after they wore out, required the operator to keep hands on the arm to
>> keep
>>> the signal flashing. I have had them fall off the steering column because
>>> they were so worn out they couldn't take it any longer. Typical of US
>> auto
>>> manufacturers (GM to be exact) to think every vehicle could use the same
>>> flimsy piece of equipment no matter how much service it was to see. New
>>> York started the foot switch because of "hands on the steering wheel"
>>> safety reasons. Not sure about Columbus.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Where did the idea for foot operated turn signals originate Herb? Any
>>>> idea?
>>>>
>>>> I first saw such a thing on Atlanta Transit System buses back in 1956.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 15, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The GM's were a problem when I worked at PATransit also. PAT purchases
>> of
>>>>> GM buses beginning with the 2100-series had an interesting option on
>>>> them.
>>>>> The left side of the bus floor, by the pedals, (where the deadman pedal
>>>>> would be on a PCC) had four (4) foot operated switches. One was the
>>>>> high-beam/low beam headlamp control, another two were the left and
>> right
>>>>> turn signals and the fourth one was to the rear of the turn signal
>>>>> switches. This switch was a "transmission override" which, when pushed
>>>> with
>>>>> the left heel, would cause the transmission to drop from high to low
>>>> gear.
>>>>> This was for use on the hills. When the bus would "dog out" going up
>> the
>>>>> hill you would kick the transmission into low using this floor switch
>> and
>>>>> would keep going up the hill at a somewhat reasonable rate of speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some thought was actually put into the placement of the four switches
>> on
>>>>> the floor. You could rest your left foot with the shoe-toe between the
>>>> turn
>>>>> signal switches and the left shoe-heel just to the right of the
>>>>> transmission override switch. You could then operate those three
>> switches
>>>>> just with a simple quick movement of the left toe or heel to the
>> desired
>>>>> switch. The high beam switch required the foot to be lifted up and over
>>>> the
>>>>> turn signal switches to hit it. However, this switch was not used that
>>>>> often. Also, the placement of these switches was so that the left foot
>>>> was
>>>>> in a comfortable position, similar to the position of the left foot on
>> a
>>>>> PCC deadman pedal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Bob Rathke <bobrathke at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When PRC bussed the 1-Spring Garden and 5-Spring Hill lines in Oct.,
>>>> 1957,
>>>>>> they replaced the trolleys with then-new Mack buses. The Mack buses
>>>> handled
>>>>>> the hill with ease, but in 1958 GM buses started to appear on Spring
>>>> Hill
>>>>>> and they really labored just to maintain a slow speed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <
>>>>>> pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:11:28 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] visual pollution or work of art
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was not aware that Paris was conduit also. My library on Germany,
>>>>>> Switzerland and Britain is extensive … then it gets a little thin.
>>>> Paris
>>>>>> was also one of those cities that quit before
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Explaining Dayton would be like trying to explain why a retard in
>>>>>> Johnstown thought he was doing something right by converting
>> streetcars
>>>> to
>>>>>> trolley buses in 1960 when he could see he was already losing his
>> shirt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure how much difference the trolley bus performance is
>>>> compared
>>>>>> to today's diesels and better transmissions. If you were talking
>>>> 1950, I
>>>>>> would have given you a resounding AMEN. Today I am not sure. I
>>>> remember
>>>>>> ACF Brill C36 buses crawling up Kissel Hill at 15 mph in second gear
>> in
>>>> the
>>>>>> 1950s heading into Lititz. Today's newer diesels sail up at 40.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 13, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Dwight Long wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fred
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Two points.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Add Paris
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) Not just cost of fuel, but operational performance on those SF
>>>>>> hills. Somewhat similar situation in Seattle. But who can explain
>>>> Dayton?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dwight
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Fred Schneider
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, 13 December, 2013 12:34
>>>>>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] visual pollution or work of art
>>>>>>> I think there is a basic premise that if you put two people in a
>> room,
>>>>>> Dennis, you have a potential argument. Politicians have learned to
>>>> use
>>>>>> them to their advantage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Phillip pointed out, the long lens can be deliberately used to
>> make
>>>>>> the trolley wires look ugly. The telephoto lens can also be used in
>>>> hilly
>>>>>> cities like San Francisco and Pittsburgh to enhance the view, make the
>>>>>> streets look steeper, and make the distant objects seem closer. If
>> we
>>>>>> used a 28 mm lens to take the slide (or 15 mm on digital) many of us
>>>> would
>>>>>> never find the wires objectionable. But there will always be those
>> who
>>>>>> will see the ugly … otherwise New York, Washington and London would
>> have
>>>>>> never been forced to invest fortunes in underground conduit to power
>>>> their
>>>>>> trolley lines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I see nothing more than a San Francisco Chronicle photographer
>> who
>>>>>> was asked to make it look ugly to support the visual pollution theme
>> in
>>>> the
>>>>>> article. He was sent out to prove a point. Very little journalism
>>>> today
>>>>>> is unbiased. You get readers, then advertisers, and make money if
>> you
>>>>>> jump into the middle of a debate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the 1940s, General Electric published a booklet in which they
>> aimed,
>>>>>> of course, to sell their hardware. They explained that if you could
>>>> fill
>>>>>> your vehicle, on average, every five minutes, then buy PCC cars. If
>>>> the
>>>>>> traffic required service every 5 to 7 minutes, use trolley buses.
>>>> Over 7
>>>>>> minutes, use diesel buses. If the service was erratic, then use
>>>> gasoline
>>>>>> buses. Of course those were average economics in the 1940s. That
>>>> window
>>>>>> for trolley buses vanished as we bought cars after the war and most
>>>> cities
>>>>>> which bought them found they had made a huge mistake by the early
>> 1950s.
>>>>>> San Francisco was the exception because the city owned its own
>>>>>> hydro-electric plant in the Sierra Nevada mountains … except for
>> paying
>>>>>> Pacific Gas and Electric a transmission charge, the power was almost
>>>> free.
>>>>>> So while most cities got rid of their trackless trolleys, Muni kept
>>>>>> theirs. I guess if Muni has any sense, they will keep the electric
>>>>>> network because the price of fossil fuels can only go up as the global
>>>>>> supply diminishes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wouldn't you like to see a survey showing how many of the complainers
>>>>>> about the visual pollution from the wires ride transit and how many
>>>> drive
>>>>>> their own cars? And perhaps also how many realize how much their
>> taxes
>>>>>> might go up if they had to pay for fossil fuels to run the network and
>>>> how
>>>>>> many of the protesters are clueless?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 13, 2013, at 6:44 AM, DF Cramer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not Pennsylvania-----but some of us consider wire work an integral
>>>> part
>>>>>> of the electric transit experience and some do not. You decide----I
>>>> think
>>>>>> the photographer was leaning towards art.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Muni-trolley-wire-visual-pollution-electrifies-5056671.php
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dennis F. Cramer
>>>>>>>> http://home.windstream.net/dfc1/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Herb Brannon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *In Pittsburgh.............................A City And.........A State
>> of
>>>>> Mind *
>>>>> Let's Go Pens
>>>>> Let's Go Steelers
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Herb Brannon
>>>
>>>
>>> *In Pittsburgh.............................A City And.........A State of
>>> Mind *
>>> Let's Go Pens
>>> Let's Go Steelers
>>>
>>>
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