[PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations

Sat Jul 13 01:27:36 EDT 2013

There were lots of changes going on with equipme nt on B&O mainline trains in the late 50's and mid-60's.  I rode the Capitol L imited from Pittsburgh to Baltimore one night in late August, 1964, and the B&O 6-bedroo m/lounge blunt-end observation had been replaced by a PRR 6-b edroom lounge car, probably because the B&O observation was in the shop that day. 

And if its trains were getting overbooked (e.g., during the airline strike in 1965), the B&O would operate a second section. I n effect, the first section was the Capitol Limited and the second section was the Columbian, and possibly the Ambassador. 

Bob 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong at verizon.net> 
To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 10:14:45 PM 
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 

John 

With all due respect, B&O #8 was the SHENANDOAH and it was a day train Pgh to Balto in 1959. It did not serve Cleveland, having originated in Chicago. 

The CLEVELAND NIGHT EXPRESS eastbound was #18.  The times you cite are correct for that train. It was combined with #20, the AMBASSADOR out of Detroit.  It appears the joint was made at Youngstown;  departure times from Akron were similar but from different stations! 

Question:  did you have any problem riding in the obs car on the CAPITOL?  This was a first class car into the early 60s at least and lowly coach pax were normally shooed out of it.  I rode the CAPITOL in 1959 (Pgh-Balto) but in the part of it called the COLUMBIAN, which was the coach section.  I spent my time in the Strata Dome.  I also rode several times Washington to Chicago starting in 1969 up til AMTK day, but by then in sleeper but still spending the time before dossing in the dome. The diner in those days was still one of the best around. 

Of course by 1969 the fictional (as a separate train) COLUMBIAN had disappeared from the schedule and the obs car was not even shown in the equipment listings, although my memory is that both the CAPITOL LIMITED and its connection to Detroit (remains of the former AMBASSADOR)  had blunt end obs cars (DANA was one of them) and with the reduced number of sleepers, maybe no one cared or was the obs actually legal for use by both classes? 

Dwight 

From: John Swindler 
Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 20:04 
To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 

Just for the record, Fred, in 1959 you probably rode B&O train 8 - The Cleveland Night Express.  Departed Cleveland Union Terminal at 9:30 p.m and arrived Pittsburgh P&LE station at 1:12 a.m.  Your fare was $4.94 

As for your Washington night train, which one???  The B&O carded three in fall 1959:  The Washington Express departed 10:55 p.m.; Ambassador/Cleveland Night Express at 1:25 a.m. and the Capitol Ltd/Columbian at 1:45 a.m. 

Ten years later, the B&O still had two night trains between Pittsburgh and Washington.  However, my interest in 1968/69 was the Capitol Limited night train between Pittsburgh and Chicago.  It had an observation car, and at $18.75 on a 'yellow' day, was $3-5 cheaper than the Pennsy.  That was important when traveling to Chicago for job interviews as a full-time, temporary CTA bus driver.   

Also, I would not bet the farm on Fred's interpretation of the UCMJ.  States and local communities have laws against hitchhiking, but you won't find anything about hitchhiking in UCMJ.  And if a sergeant or officer were to ask Fred if he violated a state law against hitchhiking, under UCMJ article 31, Fred would be protected from self-incrimination.         

> From: fwschneider at comcast.net 
> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:04:07 -0400 
> To: pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org 
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 
> 
> Recall my comment about visiting Cleveland in 1959?   I probably have the record for the G. I. taking the longest time to get home on leave from Fort Hood because my life's love has been seeing things.   It took pretty close to two weeks to get from Kileen, Texas to Lancaster, Pennsylvania … the army gave me a week's travel time because I said personal auto (even though I didn't own one) … that gave me the most travel time and the most travel cash.   
> 
> I hitched rides (yes, I know it was against the Uniform Code of Military freaking Justice .. they have a rule against everything) from Killeen to St. Louis and then spent a day or so taking pictures of PCCs.   Then I rode the Wabash up to Englewood and was met my my mom's first cousin.   The next day I went into Chicago on the Oreland Park (Wabash) commuter with the cousin and rode the North Shore to Milwaukee and back.   The following day I took pictures on CTA … not many … it was summer but the temperature dropped from 90 the day before to the 60s.   I found a movie palace to warm up for a couple of hours.   On Sunday I actually spent time with the family.   On Monday I rode the South Shore to South Bend and then hitched a couple of rides to Cleveland. 
> 
> One of those guys who picked me up was a remarkable "old man."  He claimed he had just figured out what he wanted to do with his life and he was 40 years old.   Old is relative isn't it.   When you are 15, a 20 year old is much older and no one could be as old as your parents.   At 73, anyone from 40 to 90 is in our age group!   
> 
> Well I spent a day in Cleveland … rode the Green Road line of Shaker, walked from Van Aken to the terminal basement, rode the one daily rush hour trip with former Cleveland Peter Witts back as far as Lee Road, had dinner, then rode the entire Rapid, then caught the B&O to Pittsburgh.   I spent Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday photographing trolleys in Pittsburgh and then my parents drove me home.   
> 
> Before the month's leave was over, I also rode Baltimore Transit, a pre-PCC fantrip (1053) in Washington, and went to Boston for the opening of the Riverside line. 
> 
> By the end of July I had a most delightful experience …. riding a steam drawn subway train.   The outer reaches of the Metropolitan Division of the London Underground remained in steam until 1960.  I have no pictures because the camera was in the shop but I have memories of those 1896 tank engines and compartmented rolling stock.   
> 
> But back to the original story … that B&O night train to Washington was jammed full of people.   Although I was in the coach, it was probably over 95% of a full seated load.    If the Pennsy's Cleveland Washington sleepers came off the year before, that might explain it.   But Boeing had introduced the 707 jetliner in 1958 and it was only be only a matter of months until it would be possible for a businessman from Cleveland, who wanted to lobby (bribe?) his legislators in Washington to be able to fly down from Hopkins Airport in the morning and be back in Cleveland in his own bed with his wife the same day.   He would no longer have to suffer taking the train one night and coming back the next night and having two nights away from his own bed. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 12, 2013, at 4:40 PM, Bob Rathke wrote: 
> 
> > I've got half a carton of those fragile, brown paper chips. 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong at verizon.net> 
> > To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
> > Cc: ge13031 at yahoo.com, "Dick" <hassel8 at comcast.net>, 1artwheeler at gmail.com 
> > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 3:34:44 PM 
> > Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 
> > 
> > 
> > Fred 
> > 
> > My point exactly in response to Bob’s question about continuing to use the lakefront yards and facilities for servicing pax equipment post 1953.  That amount would not pay for establishing trackage and servicing facilities at E. 55th street station. 
> > 
> > I have OGs for most years post WW II and a few before.  From 1962 thru 1971 I have December issue for each year (plus April and May 1971) so I can generally zero in on at least the last year of operation of any particular train. 
> > 
> > For PRR the Cleveland service was for years trains 38 and 39, THE CLEVELANDER.  This ran via Youngstown between Pittsburgh and Cleveland en route to/from NYC.  In the late 50s it was still a quite respectable train;  I used it many times from Rochester (Pa.) to da Burgh.  Had sleepers (plural) and those ultra-comfortable but poorly built P85BR coaches and a diner/lounge.  By the early 60s PRR essentially abdicated the New York-Cleveland market to NYC and greatly downgraded 38 and 39.  At the end of 1963 it still had one thru sleeper Cleveland-NYC but coach pax had to transfer cars at Pittsburgh.  The trains only ran between between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, with the sleeper handled on 48 and 49, THE GENERAL, between Pittsburgh and New York. By the end of 1964, 38 and 39 had been reduced to a local train running only between Cleveland and Youngstown at commuter hours.  The next year even that vestigial remnant was gone.  It never made it to PC days. 
> > 
> > The Cleveland-Washington sleeper on 38 and 39 was a casualty of the 1957-58 recession.  The B&O’s Cleveland-Washington service outlasted it by several years. 
> > 
> > I love to pore through the old OGs, but each time I use those from the 50s some small bit of fragile, browned, non-acid-free paper disintegrates! 
> > 
> > Dwight 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Fred Schneider 
> > Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 15:00 
> > To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
> > Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 
> > I was always of the understanding that they continued to run trains out of the lake front station.  The sum you mention for a commercial building would be around a million dollars today … not a lot of money.   You can easily dump that into a really fancy house.    My thoughts on the matter were along the lines of how fast did the east side collapse and did the PRR want to keep running trains out of East 55th Street. 
> > 
> > In 1959, when I made my first visit to Cleveland, Shaker Heights was just past its prime.   It was a great neighborhood.  I went back in 1965 or 1966 and noticed that some of the elite restaurants in Shaker Square (actually Cleveland city) were gone.  It was changing.  In the 1980s, I was working in Sharon or New Castle and I said to my boss … be a beautiful day to go take trolley pictures in the rush hour in Cleveland.   At 3:00 that afternoon Dave looked at me and said, "We're not going to get to Cleveland for dinner if you don't pack up."   Well, that evening we drove out Kinsman Road to Shaker Square and I had a real awakening about what had happened to the east side of the city.   Ugh.   I had walked from Broadway over to the New York Central on 125th Street in Harlem around 1969 but Kinsman Road was so bad I would not have wanted to have the car break down.   
> > 
> > I was no longer paying attention to what was happening to the mainline passenger trains in this country by 1970-1971 but maybe Bob Rathke can tell us because he collects schedules.   Was the PennCentral still running a Pittsburgh-Cleveland or New York - Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - Cleveland service when Amtrak was formed?   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jul 12, 2013, at 2:21 PM, Dwight Long wrote: 
> > 
> >> 
> >> Bob 
> >> 
> >> Don’t know, but certainly likely.  The 1941 track map of Cleveland railways does not show any significant auxiliary tracks at E 55th.  Supposedly PRR spent $80,000 to improve the E. 55th station, which even in dollars of the year in 1953 would not have paid for much than some interior improvements and general “sprucing up.”  So I suspect that PRR continued to use their facilities on the lakefront as you suggest.  They would have had to pay a switching crew anyway to break up and reassemble trains, so it presumably would not have been that much more to shuttle the consists between lakefront and 55th St. 
> >> 
> >> Dwight 
> >> 
> >> From: Bob Rathke 
> >> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 09:15 
> >> To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
> >> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Dwight, 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> The station may have been gone in 1958, but the tracks, platforms and  a train were still there when I took the photo.  Were th e station  tracks used to store and assemble trains that would depart from E. 55th St.? 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Bob 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong at verizon.net> 
> >> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
> >> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 1:31:34 AM 
> >> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 
> >> 
> >> Bob 
> >> 
> >> The last train from the lakefront station, formerly Cleveland Union Depot, was 27 September 1953.  After that PRR used a station at East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue, some two plus miles from downtown Cleveland.  There is a well-illustrated write-up on the last train, plus a brief history of Union Depot, in the current Keystone.  The old station was razed in 1959. 
> >> 
> >> Dwight 
> >> 
> >> From: Bob Rathke 
> >> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 00:03 
> >> To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
> >> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> There was also a Morning Steeler to Cleveland, and both the morning and afternoon eastbound trains were also called Steelers. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> PRR passenger trains didn't use CUT - they operated out of the PRR station on West 6th St. and the lakeshore.  Attached is a photo I took of that station on 7/8/58.  The view is to the west, with Lake Erie in the background.  Note the small PRR coach yard in the right center of the photo. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> The PRR downtown station was closed about a year after this photo was taken, and after that PRR trains terminated at the E. 55th St. Station. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Non 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> From: "Herb Brannon" <hrbran at cavtel.net> 
> >> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:57:27 PM 
> >> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 
> >> 
> >> Bob, 
> >> I'm surprised that a train with the name, "Afternoon Steeler" was permitted 
> >> inside Cleveland Union Terminal. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Bob Rathke <bobrathke at comcast.net> wrote: 
> >> 
> >>> I watched the first westbound train to leave Penn St ation on that bridge 
> >>> in 1955 - the Afternoon Steeler to Cleveland. 
> >>> 
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net> 
> >>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" < 
> >>> pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
> >>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:26:38 PM 
> >>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo  Route72 
> >>> 
> >>> Anyone else would have bought a 4-8-4.    Change that.   Anyone else with 
> >>> brains would have bought a diesel.   Think of NP, GN, Southern, ACL, SAL, 
> >>> ATSF, even Reading … all those who proved during WW2 how well EMD's product 
> >>> worked. 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Dwight Long wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Bob 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Done so that T1 locos would not stall leaving the station westbound. 
> >>> The rigid frame caused the drivers to bind up on the curve, and most 
> >>> westbound trains with T1s had to be assisted by a snapper to get out of the 
> >>> station. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Of course before the project was finished, so were the T1s. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Dwight 
> >>>> 
> >>>> From: Bob Rathke 
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, 11 July, 2013 12:55 
> >>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
> >>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 
> >>>> That bridge from the PRR station to the 6-track double-deck bridge over 
> >>> the Allegheny River was replaced by the current bridge (with a more gradual 
> >>> curve) in the spring of 1955. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>>> From: "Raymond Lattner" <rlattner at pa.gov> 
> >>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion ( 
> >>> pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org)" < 
> >>> pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 11:22:33 AM 
> >>>> Subject: [PRCo] PRCo  Route72 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Attached is a pic of route 72 Bloomfield car. Penn ave. downtown. 
> >>>> 
> >>>>> From 
> >>> http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=hpicasc_ci;med=1;q1=AIS.2012.03;size=20;c=hpicasc;back=back1373559754;subview=detail;resnum=322;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;cc=hpicasc;entryid=x-201203.1917.6503;viewid=20130206-HPICASC-0323.TIF# 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Ray 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Herb Brannon 
> >> Back In The Burgh ! 
> >> Let's Go Bucs 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
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