[PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations

Fri Jul 12 19:24:20 EDT 2013

Bob

While there had been some branch line pax train offs before the war (such as Rochester,Pa., to East Liverpool, Ohio, thru my home town, and the entire Waynesburg & Washington pax service), the big impetus on PRR started in the aftermath of their shocking loss in 1946.  For example, all but the main line DelMarVa trains came off by 1948 or maybe early 49. So did the trains to Oxford, Pa.  Many such examples.  This wave of abandonments was pretty much reaching its conclusion by 1951.  I think the B&O started the process a bit later—plus they did not have as many candidates.

Starting in the mid-fifties and reaching its climax in the 1957-58 recession, the PRR started going after secondary main line trains, as well as secondary trains on primary main lines.  The secondary main line train-offs were pretty well complete well before the PC merger, The Buffalo line was an exception—a rump service ran tri-weekly right up til AMTK, but that was not for want of trying by PRR and later PC. The PRR in early 1954 finalized an internal plan for line and service abandonments which was forecast to be completed in five years but proved impossible to execute in that time and was extended to 1963.

As Fred said correctly, the advent of jet aircraft in the late 50s early 60s accentuated the process of axing secondary trains on main lines.  PRR’s PITTSBURGHER is a good example—it was all sleeper (most of the time) and ran very heavy up to the late 50s.  When jets started serving the Pittsburgh-NYC market, it dwindled rapidly.  At its end in 1964 it was down to only three sleepers (still no coaches) and those could easily be added or subtracted to through trains that passed through Pittsburgh.  Theoretically the service was the same as one could board the sleepers around 9 PM in Pittsburgh and stay in them til a civilized hour in the morning, but it was just not the same service as the PITTSBURGHER.  My father usually made two trips a month to NYC and he had been a regular user of the PITTSBURGHER, but after it came off he switched to air.  It was in the same time frame that the CLEVELANDER’s consist diminished rapidly and soon after that PRR severely downgraded and ultimately axed it.

The last days of operation for the STEELERS were 7 September 1957 for the morning version and 28 June 1958 for the afternoon version.

Dwight

From: Bob Rathke 
Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 18:02
To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations

Dwight, 

I just checked two PRR systrem timetable from both ends of the era we've been discussing: 

- 12/2/51 timetable - no coaches on The General. The C levelander was a through train from Cleveland to New York, and carried sleepers, lounge and dining cars, and coaches. The Pittsburgh-Cleveland timetable also shows the Steelers and  a numbered (no name) train, plus several trains over only parts of the Youngstown line (probably partial schedules of trains that ran via Canton ). 

- 2/9/64 timetable - The General carried coaches but they were all reserved for a fee. 

Both the PRR and B&O began abandoning branch and secondary line trains around 1951, and then started to drop and combine mainline trains in 1957-58. 

Bob 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong at verizon.net> 
To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 4:14:46 PM 
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 

Bob 

The combination of THE CLEVELANDER’s cars (sleeper at least, did coaches ever run thru on the GENERAL?) did not take place until much later than the early 50s.  As late as 1958 38 and 39 were still running through as a separate train, although it was combined with the ADMIRAL westbound and train 68 (Harrisburg-Philly) eastbound.  The CLEVELANDER in those days had its own diner/lounge, which ran through. 

Both the morning and afternoon STEELERS, in addition to the equipment you showed, carried a diner/parlor car. These trains ( 361-2-3-4) were still in the schedule at the end of 1956 and I presume were casualties of the 57-58 recession.  It appears they may have carried the parlors until the end, or close to it.  I do not have a 1957 OG, but all were gone by July 1958.  I saw these trains, or at least the afternoon version, quite often in Pittsburgh but never rode them as they did not call at Rochester (except for the morning westbound, which did me no good!).  It appeared PRR was trying to be competitive in this market up to the recession. 

Dwight 

From: Bob Rathke 
Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 16:34 
To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 

Through the first half of the 1950's the PRR had three trains each way  between Pgh. and Cleveland: the Morning and Afternoon Steelers (coaches, and earlier a lounge car)  and the Clevelander.  Between  Cleveland and  Pittsburgh (via Youngstown)  the Clevelander carried a sleeping car and a coach, and east of Pittsburgh these trains were combined with The General   which had sleepers, diner and lounge car. 

The Clevelander was in the 2/9/64 timetable, but was not in the 4/26/64 timetable.   I checked timetables going back to 1951, and all of them identify the Cleveland Station as si mply "Pen na. Station" - no street address, although in the 1950's timetables, mileage numbers indicate that "Penna. Station" was west of "Euclid Ave. Station"; I couldn't find mention of the West 6th St. address in any of the timetables .  In the late 1950's and early 60's  timetables the address and phone number  for "Penna Station" in Cleveland wa s - get this - the Grant St. and Liberty Ave  Station in Pgh. - I assume that by that time the Cleveland station was minimally staffed, if at all.  The timetables were only partially helpful in solving this one. 

The other Pgh.-Cleveland service was via the B&O (plus the B&O/P&LE/Erie connections via Youngstown).  The B&O train  from Cleveland to Baltimore was the Cleveland Night Express which was combined with/split from  other B&O through trains east of Pittsburgh.  From Pgh. to Cleveland, The Cleveland Night Express carried a sleeper, lounge car and coach.  This train was i n the October, 1962 timetable, but was not in the 1/22/63 timetable. 

Bob 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net> 
To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 2:00:29 PM 
Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 

I was always of the understanding that they continued to run trains out of the lake front station.  The sum you mention for a commercial building would be around a million dollars today … not a lot of money.   You can easily dump that into a really fancy house.    My thoughts on the matter were along the lines of how fast did the east side collapse and did the PRR want to keep running trains out of East 55th Street. 

In 1959, when I made my first visit to Cleveland, Shaker Heights was just past its prime.   It was a great neighborhood.  I went back in 1965 or 1966 and noticed that some of the elite restaurants in Shaker Square (actually Cleveland city) were gone.  It was changing.  In the 1980s, I was working in Sharon or New Castle and I said to my boss … be a beautiful day to go take trolley pictures in the rush hour in Cleveland.   At 3:00 that afternoon Dave looked at me and said, "We're not going to get to Cleveland for dinner if you don't pack up."   Well, that evening we drove out Kinsman Road to Shaker Square and I had a real awakening about what had happened to the east side of the city.   Ugh.   I had walked from Broadway over to the New York Central on 125th Street in Harlem around 1969 but Kinsman Road was so bad I would not have wanted to have the car break down.   

I was no longer paying attention to what was happening to the mainline passenger trains in this country by 1970-1971 but maybe Bob Rathke can tell us because he collects schedules.   Was the PennCentral still running a Pittsburgh-Cleveland or New York - Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - Cleveland service when Amtrak was formed?   

On Jul 12, 2013, at 2:21 PM, Dwight Long wrote: 

> 
> Bob 
> 
> Don’t know, but certainly likely.  The 1941 track map of Cleveland railways does not show any significant auxiliary tracks at E 55th.  Supposedly PRR spent $80,000 to improve the E. 55th station, which even in dollars of the year in 1953 would not have paid for much than some interior improvements and general “sprucing up.”  So I suspect that PRR continued to use their facilities on the lakefront as you suggest.  They would have had to pay a switching crew anyway to break up and reassemble trains, so it presumably would not have been that much more to shuttle the consists between lakefront and 55th St. 
> 
> Dwight 
> 
> From: Bob Rathke 
> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 09:15 
> To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 
> 
> 
> Dwight, 
> 
> 
> 
> The station may have been gone in 1958, but the tracks, platforms and  a train were still there when I took the photo.  Were th e station  tracks used to store and assemble trains that would depart from E. 55th St.? 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> 
> From: "Dwight Long" <dwightlong at verizon.net> 
> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 1:31:34 AM 
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRR Cleveland Stations 
> 
> Bob 
> 
> The last train from the lakefront station, formerly Cleveland Union Depot, was 27 September 1953.  After that PRR used a station at East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue, some two plus miles from downtown Cleveland.  There is a well-illustrated write-up on the last train, plus a brief history of Union Depot, in the current Keystone.  The old station was razed in 1959. 
> 
> Dwight 
> 
> From: Bob Rathke 
> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2013 00:03 
> To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 
> 
> 
> There was also a Morning Steeler to Cleveland, and both the morning and afternoon eastbound trains were also called Steelers. 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR passenger trains didn't use CUT - they operated out of the PRR station on West 6th St. and the lakeshore.  Attached is a photo I took of that station on 7/8/58.  The view is to the west, with Lake Erie in the background.  Note the small PRR coach yard in the right center of the photo. 
> 
> 
> 
> The PRR downtown station was closed about a year after this photo was taken, and after that PRR trains terminated at the E. 55th St. Station. 
> 
> 
> 
> Non 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> 
> From: "Herb Brannon" <hrbran at cavtel.net> 
> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" <pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:57:27 PM 
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 
> 
> Bob, 
> I'm surprised that a train with the name, "Afternoon Steeler" was permitted 
> inside Cleveland Union Terminal. 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Bob Rathke <bobrathke at comcast.net> wrote: 
> 
>> I watched the first westbound train to leave Penn St ation on that bridge 
>> in 1955 - the Afternoon Steeler to Cleveland. 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net> 
>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion" < 
>> pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:26:38 PM 
>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo  Route72 
>> 
>> Anyone else would have bought a 4-8-4.    Change that.   Anyone else with 
>> brains would have bought a diesel.   Think of NP, GN, Southern, ACL, SAL, 
>> ATSF, even Reading … all those who proved during WW2 how well EMD's product 
>> worked. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Dwight Long wrote: 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob 
>>> 
>>> Done so that T1 locos would not stall leaving the station westbound. 
>> The rigid frame caused the drivers to bind up on the curve, and most 
>> westbound trains with T1s had to be assisted by a snapper to get out of the 
>> station. 
>>> 
>>> Of course before the project was finished, so were the T1s. 
>>> 
>>> Dwight 
>>> 
>>> From: Bob Rathke 
>>> Sent: Thursday, 11 July, 2013 12:55 
>>> To: Western PA Trolley discussion 
>>> Subject: Re: [PRCo] PRCo Route72 
>>> That bridge from the PRR station to the 6-track double-deck bridge over 
>> the Allegheny River was replaced by the current bridge (with a more gradual 
>> curve) in the spring of 1955. 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Raymond Lattner" <rlattner at pa.gov> 
>>> To: "Western PA Trolley discussion ( 
>> pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org)" < 
>> pittsburgh-railways at mailman.dementix.org> 
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 11:22:33 AM 
>>> Subject: [PRCo] PRCo  Route72 
>>> 
>>> Attached is a pic of route 72 Bloomfield car. Penn ave. downtown. 
>>> 
>>>> From 
>> http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=hpicasc_ci;med=1;q1=AIS.2012.03;size=20;c=hpicasc;back=back1373559754;subview=detail;resnum=322;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;cc=hpicasc;entryid=x-201203.1917.6503;viewid=20130206-HPICASC-0323.TIF# 
>>> 
>>> Ray 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Herb Brannon 
> Back In The Burgh ! 
> Let's Go Bucs 
> 
> 
> 
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